On the Brink with Iran Posted by Suzanne Nossel

After last Friday’s report by the International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed that Tehran has successfully enriched uranium and defied the UN Security Council’s Friday deadline to halt the process, we find ourselves in a frightening stand-off with an uncontrollable Islamic demagogue bent getting nukes.  I am not an expert on the region, but here’s my take on some things the U.S. ought and ought not do:

1. Do everything possible to position this as a showdown between the Iranand the UN, not Iranand the US– Fortunately, as I’ve described before, Iranians are playing into our hands on this with its flagrant defiance of the Security Council.  China and Russia are unreliable partners when it comes to forceful action but, if positioned right, they will back the proposition that no government can get away with ignoring the Security Council.

2. Align the world’s neutral nations behind a tough UN stance – Behind the scenes, the US and Europe should be working the 30-50 key capitals around the world – Australia, Malaysia, Nigeria, South Africa, Brazil, Poland, etc. – on the idea that a nuclear-armed Iran is unacceptable, and that the time to stop it is now.  While many of these countries have economic and other ties to Iran, they will all recognize that Ahmadinejad is dangerous and is flouting the Council.  Having the support of these neutrals will back up claim #1 above and make it more likely that Moscow and Beijing ultimately come around.

3. Stay close to Europe– This is obvious, but this Administration can't be relied on to choose rhetoric that ensures that no daylight opens up between Washington and Brussels.  Condi Rice’s reference to “like-minded” nations potentially acting outside the UNSC rubric prompted Javier Solana to retort that no European country would take part in such a coalition of the willing.  While Solana is wrong to offer Admadinejad the succor of believing that as long as China and Russia hold out he’s safe, the US should have known better than to beg the question right now.  For time being, the language needed to keep the EU on board starts with the letters U and N.  Other options must remain open, but well in the background in the short term.

4. Hold firm on the idea that Iran cannot dictate to the UN – Ahmadinejad’s latest gambit was to allow robust international inspections, but only if their case is referred back from the Security Council to the IAEA.  It did so because only the UNSC has the power to act – through sanctions or force – in response to evidence of misbehavior.  The Administration rightly rejected this.  Iran cannot dictate to the international community how and where it addresses threats to peace and security. 

5. Consider an outcome involving intrusive inspections under UNSC supervision – Given the provisions of the NPT that allow for civilian nuclear development, and the absence of a recognized exemption for countries that hide and lie about their weapons programs, its hard to see how international consensus coalesces around anything tougher than rigorous inspections under a watchful UN eye.  While that’s neither an ideal nor a permanent solution, the experience in Iraq suggests that if inspectors have unfettered access, they can go a long way toward cramping the style of a rogue state. 

Iran is currently estimated to be 5-10 years away from operational nuclear weapons.  The longer that timeline can be stretched, the greater the likelihood of regime change in the meantime which could open up possibilities for a more complete solution, potentially as part of a beefed up global non-proliferation framework.  If Iran defies the inspections, all other options come back on the table.

Before throwing up your hands on this approach, consider the alternatives: under the current NPT the UN will never back forcing Tehran to give up on civilian nuclear energy.  While the US rightly sees that as the safest outcome, achieving it through anything short of regime change seems impossible.  Everyone knows that an invasion is impracticable, and there’s no sign that Ahmadinejad’s particularly vulnerable internally (in fact, the international pressure is by some accounts strengthening him politically).  Sad to say, there’s no viable scenario in which a totally de-nuked Iran emerges in the short-term.

So while we’re right to continue to demand a complete cessation of Iran’s nuclear program, policymakers should privately acknowledge that this outcome is unlikely and be sketching detailed contours for the kind of inspection regime that would keep Iran on the reservation.  Getting even this won’t be easy.

Comments

[Cal]

...under the current NPT the UN will never back forcing Tehran to give up on civilian nuclear energy. While the US rightly sees that as the safest outcome, achieving it through anything short of regime change seems impossible.

Iran's nuclear program started under the Shah, and by all accounts the program is popular with the Iranians. There's zero evidence that even a regime change would stop this, even if we somehow manage to install a compliant gov't.

The fact is that maintaining Israel's nuclear monopoly in the region isn't sustainable, and it's time we acknowledge this reality and adjust to it.

You also haven't mentioned what you'd offer the Iranians (assuming they're willing to negotiate). As you said, their hard-line position has made them popular. They can't afford to back away from this now just because the West threatens them. You have to offer them something positive to save face.

[Dan Kervick]

Well, this is all rather hysterical.

I'm having trouble squaring your breathless "on the brink" rhetoric with your acknowledgement that Iran is currently estimated to be 5-10 years away from operational nuclear weapons, and that the real goal is just to stretch out the timeline.

This statement from the UK last month captures the true flavor of the "brinkmanship" over Iran:

In Berlin, British officials admitted that no consensus had been reached on what measures to take should Iran ignore the latest deadline. Conscious of Russian and Chinese reluctance to move to sanctions, the US, Britain, France and Germany are considering relatively soft penalties, such as restricting access to nuclear technology and exports and limiting trade. Other options include banning the Iranian leadership from travelling abroad - a measure that would prevent the government attending this summer's World Cup in Germany. Yesterday, however, Foreign Office officials were doubtful. "I don't think there is any support for expelling Iran from the World Cup," one said. He added: "I'm not sure Ahmadinejad [Iran's president] goes skiing in Austria. But there are a series of measures we can take."

Travel restrictions. I guess they're all really scared over there in England and Europe about our hideous situation on the brink of the precipice. El Baradei had it right:

And Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said: "Sanctions are a bad idea. We are not facing an imminent threat. We need to lower the pitch." He told a forum in the Qatari capital, Doha: "My message to Iran?: the international community is getting impatient and you need to respond by arming me with information."

The real heat here is between the US and Iran, and we're ultimately going to have to deal with the Iranians ourselves, by talking with them as Senator Lugar recommended, rather than hiding behind our allies. We hold most of the high cards, so we shouldn't be afraid of dealing. But Iran does have one significant card in its hand. It's obvious to the world that for political reasons the US is unwilling and afraid to talk with Iran, and conduct straightforward diplomacy with them. So long as that posture is unchanged, it will be hard to gather broad-based global support for any US initiatives.

By the way, I think it is wrong to raise people's hopes for "regime change" in Iran. The Iranians seem to have done a pretty good job of consolidating their revolution and form of government since 1979, and I don't think it is realistic to pin any hopes on the regime's collapse. The civilian nuclear program is, by most accounts, quite popular in Iran. Raising the regime change possibility over and over, in the manner of the administration's spokespersons and flacks, only encourages a faith-based approach to this problem rather than a reality-based solution.

[Craig]

I have just two points.

1. I would be careful with the term 'regime change.' I would prefer a phrase like 'internal change of government' rather than a term too closely associated with forced change.

2. Sensible proposals are all good and fine and should be pushed when possible but we've reached an unprecedented point where all discussions on these things must include a recognition that Bush's credibility is low and that profoundly affects all discussions. Ideas that can bring credibility to the table should be considered. For example, don't underestimate your audience. Russia and China could both use deeper explanations of why letting the Iran problem twist in the wind is not to their advantage. Bush and his inner circle are not the only ones guilty of unrealistic thinking.

[Souldrift]

For a normally-very-thoughtful progressive site to post an article where the premise "So while we’re right to continue to demand a complete cessation of Iran’s nuclear program.." is taken without question is a bit disheartening.

[J Thomas]

As Susan points out, the real problem here is between iran and the USA, and the rest of the world is more concerned that we'll make another aggressive attack than that iran will get nukes any time soon. We desperately need to reframe the issue to something other than two rogue states having a disagreement.

We need to offer some sort of concessions. Both to get the iranians to save face and deal, and to get support from other nations.

We currently have just under 10,000 nukes ourselves. In exchange for either iranian capitulation or UN agreement for drastic action, we might agree to reduce our arsenal to 1000 warheads, with inspections to verify compliance.

Also, we could agree to pressure israel to accept a limit of 100 warheads with inspections.

These concessions would look like a big deal to the rest of the world, but they aren't. Any war we can't win with 1000 warheads, we aren't going to win with 10,000. Similarly for israel, any war they can't win with 100 nukes isn't going to go any better if they use 2000 nukes.

We don't really lose anything but we look much more responsible and less rogue-nationish. And israel looks much better if they agree ahead of time instead of requiring pressure.

[Than]

I agree that the US needs to frame the situation in terms of the UN dealing with Iran. Iran may enjoy mouthing off to the US, but I think it would be a lot more difficult to mouth off to the United Nations, especially if they were truly United on this issue. At least as a body of nations our demands would look more legitimate.

The idea of concessions is also interesting, but unrealistic. We all know the US wouldn't make any real concessions to encourage Iran to step down. There is too much conceit. If the US doesn't care to be involved in UN Millennium Development Goals, I doubt they would care to sacrifice power or resources in other areas.

[J Thomas]

Than, if the USA won't offer the UN any concessions, why should they unite behind our leadership against iran?

Surely to any reasonable person the USA -- with 10,000 nukes and led by Bush/Cheney -- looks like a far greater threat than iran -- months to a decade from their first nuke.

[siggi churchill]

The answer is so simple and since NO ONE has breathed a word of it this is most likely America's plan for action.

A one night blitzkrieg of conventional missiles, stealth aircraft, drones and ol' timey special ops aimed at killing the top 20% of Iran's murderous, illegitimate, corrupt regime. Any wanna be 'supreme leader' had best think fast before their own people stomp their guts out in the streets.

This would protect Iran's resources and infrastructures and insure a move towards a fair and responsible government.

The regime is the enemy. Such a strike would have the happy benefit of scaring the daylights out of such wonderful tyrannies as Syria and Egypt.

As far as a 'backlash' against America - so what? Is it really possible to inflame the Islamic street anymore than it already is?

[J Thomas]

Siggi, what you say makes some sense. But wouldn't we want to also do something about the nukes? Like, in your scenario we could find their enriched stuff and confiscate it, and maybe also confiscate their UF6, and their yellowcake, and so on. So to start up a nuclear program they have to go clear back to mining fresh ore. Far more useful to raid the installations and take the nuclear material than just bomb them and hope the fallout wasn't too bad. If we spread radioactives around then for the next 200 years every time somebody gets a deformed baby (which happens close to 1% of the time anyway) they'll think of us.

Now, you want to kill the top fifth of the iraqi government plus the various quasi-government guys who might really be in control. To do that, don't we also have to take out their air defense network and all their airbases? And also all the sites they might use to launch missiles and cruise missles against our bases and against oil tankers etc. And we'll have to smash their communication systems, military and nonmilitary. Once we do that we don't have to worry about their army except when they blunder upon some of our guys and we have to destroy them. But we have to take out their navy.

Can we do all this in one day? We're talking about hundreds of military sites, and thousands of politicians, and who knows how many nuclear sites. Some of them will get away and have to be chased down. Better plan on a week or two. But by then they'll have time to develop some disorganised resistance. Everybody who can get guns will be carrying them, hoping for a shot at us. We'll have to kill lots of civilians who shoot at us and civilians who're in the same ten acres as people who shoot at us. It's likely to get kind of messy. But we might do it.

Now think about the likely results. Imagine that some foreign nation sneaked a whole bunch of terrorists into DC and one night they killed the President and Vice President and cabinet and every republican senator or representative. Now, I feel about our current government probably just about the way the majority of iranians feel about their current government. These idiots are driving this country straight into the ground and I don't like it one bit. But if a foreign nation staged a sneak attack and killed them, I wouldn't put up with it. I wouldn't do one single thing to keep them from being replaced by new republicans and I'd support whatever revenge we could reasonably get. If anybody gets to kill these sleazebags it's going to be a proper execution after a fair trial. Not some enemy government that wants to control us.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a whole lot of iranians feel the same way.

So I think this is probably a stupid strategy. It is unlikely to get the result we want. Before we try it we should look for some way to get data whether it would work. Would iranians be happy we killed their government and a bunch of religious leaders? Or would they go hyper-nationalistic? My guess is it would have a very bad result. But we'd do better to get reliable evidence than depend on anybody's guess. The stakes are pretty high.

As far as a 'backlash' against America - so what? Is it really possible to inflame the Islamic street anymore than it already is?

Well, yes, it is possible. How many muslims have volunteered to be suicide bombers so far? Is it one in a million? Or possibly as many as one in a hundred thousand? They could get a whole lot more inflamed.

[Bill Arnett]

This is some of the most unmitigated bullshit I have ever read. Why, oh why, do you seek to provoke another reckless, idiotic attack against yet another country that REALISTICALLY POSES NO THREAT WHATEVER TO AMERICA?

You make no mention, and deliberately ignore the fact, that when Russia had thousands of nukes pointed at us the theory of Mutually Assured Destruction worked just fine to keep the peace. Your "plans" regarding Iran completely ignore any true diplomacy at all, and we have seen the results of "undiplomatic", bullying false diplomacy with North Korea.

Even if Iran had nukes now they would not dare use them for that reason, mutually Assured Destruction - they would be immediately destroyed and buried under ten feet of glass. If they developed a nuke, gave it to someone else, and that someone else used it, the nuclear signature would lead straight to the source and again, they would be immediately destroyed.

I am so sick of all the fear-mongering, from EITHER side of the isle; it's embarrassing to me as an American. Why?

Because I am an American who refuses to let others try to make me live in fear. Bushco has so fucked up the mentality of America with its reckless wars and bullshit rhetoric. Why, as a seemingly intelligent person, do you want to pursue courses of action so deleterious to the safety of this country?

I FEAR NO COUNTRY! even as broken as our military is becoming we can, and, I'm sure, would wipe any nation that attacked us with nukes right off the face of the earth, so why the hell should I care about Iran having nukes? Muslims may have different religious views, but they aren't stupid. But WE would be ridiculously stupid to wage ANOTHER useless war of criminal aggression.

At the war crime trials of Japan the court ruled that aggressive "preemptive first strikes" was unlawful (and, oh yeah, that was their first line of defense: they had to attack America for their safety before America might attack them. Sound at all familiar?), and many a Japanese general was imprisoned for THAT war crime. I can only pray that all these fear/warmongers will someday face the same charges – they have made the world and America demonstrably LESS SAFE. (Terror attacks and deaths resulting from them have gone up five-fold – and you think it is a great idea to increase that danger exponentially by attacking another sovereign nation without provocation?)

The main reason they want a nuke is to prevent the rogue country that Amerika has become from attacking them. If you have oil, Amerika will find or manufacture a reason to attack you IF YOU DO NOT HAVE NUKES. Even we aren't stupid enough YET to attack a nuclear armed nation and ensure the destruction of America. Mutually Assured Destruction works.

If we attack yet again another Muslim nation without provocation (and their legitimate pursuit of nuclear power or even their desire to be able to provide for their defense against nuclear armed aggressors IS NOT sufficient provocation) the entire world may go up in flames, especially if the insane Bush administration attacks a non-nuclear armed nation with nuclear weapons!

If you thought the international riots over cartoon was bad, wait until Bush provides PROOF POSITIVE (to the Muslim world) that he intends to destroy all Muslims. 1.2 Billion of them, 300-million of us. Why, only one-third of them need to kill just one American each and WE will be wiped from the earth.

Bush has already show that he will lie, cheat, obfuscate, conceal important info, misuse intelligence and anything else he must do to further his messianic vision of Armageddon and the coming of the Rapture. he just reaffirmed last week that his foreign policy is dictated by God, whom I suspect Bush talks to AND HEARS ANSWERS FROM. Why would ANY reasonable person ever again believe the neocon bullshit?

No, the destruction of America, the ideals and standards we developed over the last two hundred years is not enough for King George. He must destroy the world to save it, just as he will lie to us again and tell us Iran must be destroyed to 'save" it.

I AM AMERICAN. I AM NOT AFRAID. STOP THE FEAR-MONGERING. STOP ARROGATING AMERICA AS THE SOLE ARBITER OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND JUST IN THE WORLD. STOP THE BULLSHIT BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

[J Thomas]

Bill Arnett, while your reasonable argument is clearly for the most part correct, still try to look at it from the other side.

The most important belief is that islamofascists don't care if every muslim in the world gets killed, provided they get to kill some of us first. We talk like this is a new thing but it isn't.

During the cold war we had a lot of people who didn't believe MAD would work on the russian leadership. They believed the russian dictators were fanatics who cared only about world communism. If they lost most of their population but destroyed the USA in the process, they'd think they came out ahead. Ten years later they could come out of their bunkers and the communist infiltrators all over the remaining world would have turned the whole world to communism and freedom would be lost forever.

And later they didn't believe MAD would work against the communist chinese. The maoists themselves said it wouldn't work, that they could survive a nuclear war while the USA and the USSR couldn't. They were crazier than the soviet union, who were kind of stolid and gloomy chess players. The chinese were ready to take insane risks, they didn't care how many peasants they lost, they had too many mouths to feed already. Mao was crazy and he'd already killed at least tens of millions of his own people, For close to 60 years chinese children were taught to say "Death to America!". We couldn't trust them with nukes. But our plan to do a surgical strike was shelved. And later when the russians considered a surgical strike we said no.

On the other hand, we were sure that the israelis were completely responsible and would never nuke anybody. They needed nukes because they were surrounded by fifty times their number of arabs. They would never threaten anybody with nukes and they'd certainly never use them because they were the outpost of civilized westerners in the middle east. Nobody ever showed so much patience and forebearance and civilised restraint as the israelis, they would never ever nuke anybody who hadn't nuked them first, they were a threat to nobody, the most reasonable peaceful pacifistic nation on the planet. Never mind about Masada and all that. Israel would never ever use their nukes unless their enemies nuked them first. They only have nukes in case some arab nation someday gets them too.

Pakistan, now, they might give nukes to terrorists.

And of course if Saddam got nukes we just knew he'd use them. He was a madman. Ghaddafi too, another madman.

And iran. The claim is most national leaders don't want to die, but iranian leaders are so religious they'd be glad if their whole country died and went to heaven at the same time. They'd be glad to have 70 million persians die if they could kill 4 million jews at the same time. You can't reason with people like that. All you can do is kill them before they kill you. They'd just jump at the chance to get nuked and all die if they could kill 10 million americans. They're fanatics, they're crazy. Anybody who thinks MAD could work on them is as crazy as they are. If iran gets a nuke they are 100% certain to use it as quick as they can. Or maybe it isn't 100%, but it's an utterly unacceptable risk.

So the only possible response is to do whatever it takes to stop iran from getting that nuke. If we have to bomb them back to the stone age, do it. If we have to nuke them, do that. They're likely to hold a grudge if we attack them, even though it's for their own good. So we might have to kill every single one of them -- because they're all fanatics who would probably do something terrible if we let them live.

Now, you claim that iran won't be a threat to the USA even when they get some nukes. It will take time before they can attack us, and all that. Yes, that's true, but they'll be a threat to israel immediately. And remember that israel is our only friend in the middle east. They're the only democracy in the middle east. And remember the holocaust. We can't let anything bad happen to israel. We have to do whatever it takes to eliminate any threat to israel. This isn't open for discussion, anybody who disagrees doesn't deserve to be an american.

Since every arab or muslim nation is a threat to israel and a threat to the USA, we have a moral obligation to turn them all into liberal democracies if we can. Because the only alternative is to kill them all in self-defense.

Islamofascists are our implacable enemies. 9/11 showed that we can't have peaceful coexistence. Next time it might be a nuclear reactor. We could lose cities to them. It is unacceptable to have another 9/11 or worse. This also is not open to discussion, anybody who says it's acceptable to take any chance of suffering another 9/11 is not eligible to be an american. The only way to stop them is to kill all the islamic fanatics and turn all the other muslims into people who believe in liberal democracy. And we have to do it before they hit us again. There is no alternative. We are at war and the war will continue until every muslim who believes in islam as a religion of the sword has been slaughtered. We cannot live in the same world with them. We must kill them all before they kill us all. They have told us their intentions and we must either cravenly surrender -- which is not open to discussion -- or we must annihilate them.

When every surviving muslim in the world has surrendered to us, and promised never to use violence for any purpose, and promised never to learn any technology that can be used for sabotage, then in a few generations we can have peace. But until that day we must do whatever it takes to create a world where no muslim anywhere gets access to dangerous technology.

We must be resolute. Any attempt at negotiation or compromise will be used against us by fanatices who cannot accept anything short of total victory. So any weakness during the next century could cause millions or even billions of casualties. We cannot allow anyone who's weak or foolish or cowardly to have access to any of the levers of power. Anyone who believes that islam is not the greatest threat the world has ever seen, is for all intents and purposes a soldier for the enemy. We must do whatever it takes to keep them out of power. If that means subverting the media, faked elections, reduced freedom for a few generations, it's what must be done. The alternative of even a partial islamic victory is unacceptable and not open for discussion.

Remember, there is no substitute for victory. Either we win, or they win. There is no middle ground. We must win. We must never compromise. Never throw away our victory. So there can be no compromise with liberals or softies.

Anybody who supports the terrorists is the enemy. Anybody who says arab lives are valuable is the enemy. Anybody who suggests diplomacy is the enemy. Anybody who is willing to settle for less than a total and final victory is the enemy.

--------------

So while your position is reasonable and logical, I hope you can see the logic of the other side too. Their reasoning is coherent and consistent given the beliefs they start from. They believe we are facing an unprecedented threat, something that no one has ever faced before. They believe that threat requires that we give up our own humanity so we can effectively fight the murderous enemy. They believe we must be just as ruthless as the enemy, just as implacable, just as merciless, just as crazy, or we will lose and die. It's a hard choice but we are the ones who are called to do it. If we fail to take up that challenge, if we fail to kill all the islamists before it is too late, terrible things will happen and we will have sacrificed our sanity in vain.

So I hope you can see better what you're up against. To convince people to give up this eschatalogical view, you must offer them an alternative that is more compelling than the romance of the hard choices. And you must do it before they notice they need to suppress you as a danger to the war effort.

[Bill Arnett]

"…if we fail to kill all the islamists before it is too late, terrible things will happen and we will have sacrificed our sanity in vain."

How specious can you get? Why stop with islamists? Let's kill all the Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Christian of all stripes, and in general, just kill anyone we don't like including the next-door neighbor who plays his stereo too loud?

And if I am an impediment to senseless warfare with the potential to destroy all life on earth or make parts of the planet uninhabitable for the next ten thousand years, why, IT WOULD BE MY PROUDEST MOMENT IN LIFE.

Most ridiculous of all is claiming that you, or any government, can stop the spread of KNOWLEDGE. The only way to stop the advance of knowledge is to kill all teachers, kill all parents, kill anyone whom presumes to learn anything. It is obvious that such a thing could NEVER be done, even by King George and his Republican Guard, for it is the nature of Man to learn. Homo Sapiens Sapien: Man, the Thinker about Thinking, will learn no matter how many bigots, tyrants, kings, or emperors try to prevent it. Do you support Nazi-style book burnings? Even THAT could not stop the logical progression of learning.

I fondly look back to a time when being American meant something. Truth, justice, and the American Way were always more than trite slogans – it was a way of life. Kindness, decency, lending a helping hand, providing for the common good, a government that truly represented and pursued the ideals and mores of its people instead of self-aggrandizing, pernicious, your-on-your-own, don't give a shit about the elderly, infirm, the young who need guidance and love, the plainly pitiful cries of a president impotently declaring that "I-am-the-law" and "I'm the Decider" as if he had reached the pinnacle of human achievement.

Let me leave you with these eight beatitudes of Christ. The direct teachings of Jesus that these evangelical warmongers utterly ignore:

THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Perhaps those smarter than me can show me the error of my ways, for I don't read into these simple, beautiful words anything of what you espouse: hatred, bigotry, killing for oil, killing because the other person is different in appearance, religion, creed, ethos, way of life, regional location, or in satisfaction of imperialistic crusades and ideals.

I'm sorry. I AM AN AMERICAN. I BELIEVE IN AMERICA AND THE IDEALS THAT MADE THIS COUNTRY GREAT. I FEAR FOR MY COUNTRY FOR IT IS BEING CONTROLLED BY ASSHOLES WITH NO CONSIDERATION FOR ANYTHING BUT FULFILLING THEIR PERNICIOUS, PRETENTIOUS, IMPERIALISTIC DESIRES TO CONTROL THE WORLD'S OIL. There will be a special place in Hell for Bushco and his Republican Guard and all those so short-sighted as to be ignorant of the fact that they are destroying the formally greatest country on earth.

I hope that your last few paragraphs are intended to seperate yourself from those who will end up destroying us all – for how long do you think the rest of the world will refrain from nuking US to save the world from Amerika.

[CKR]

Suzanne, hel-lo!

I suggest that you read the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. It says that non nuclear weapon states have a right to the full nuclear fuel cycle (Article IV). It does not say that the United States is delegated to pick and choose which nations may have nuclear technology under the threat of nuclear attack.

Yes, Iran has done some suspicious things. But joining the Bush fear brigade, especially when you explicitly recognize that Iran is unlikely to have working nuclear weapons for 5 to 10 years is, well, hysterical.

Don't let what you read in the newspapers get you down.

And what exactly was your reason that something must be done, now?

[J Thomas]

And if I am an impediment to senseless warfare with the potential to destroy all life on earth or make parts of the planet uninhabitable for the next ten thousand years, why, IT WOULD BE MY PROUDEST MOMENT IN LIFE.

Unfortunately, pretty much everybody shares this view. Neocons wanted to claim they were preventing that by sucking the USA into war with iraq because Saddam would have started it. Now they're saying the same thing about iran. Nobody says they're in favor of making the planet uninhabitable for 10,000 years, and everybody wants to think they're doing their part to stop it. If iran would make that happen, and we can stop it by nuking iran, well -- there are people who seriously use that as an argument in favor of nuking iran.

Most ridiculous of all is claiming that you, or any government, can stop the spread of KNOWLEDGE. The only way to stop the advance of knowledge is to kill all teachers, kill all parents, kill anyone whom presumes to learn anything. It is obvious that such a thing could NEVER be done,

Well, think it out. If we want to stop terrorists from doing lethal sabotage, we can't hope to persuade them not -- to because we believe they're crazy fanatics. And we can't hope to kill them all unless we kill all the arabs and all the muslims. So the next possibility is to keep them from getting the means. If they don't know how then they can't blow anything up. It might not be necessary to actually keep them from learning. Just make sure they stay behind their own borders, and keep them from having electricity. It's very tedious learning about modern technology when you don't have electricity. There were people who thought this way about germany after WWI. They wanted to deny germany all technology. They didn't do that but they got sufficient sanctions imposed that germans suffered terribly and believed the whole world was against them, and somehow Hitler took over there. There was talk during WWII of doing it for real that time but we did the Marshall plan instead.

People wind up in arguments like this when they aren't willing to trust and aren't willing to accept the occasional big problem. It isn't always that way. There are places where lots of people have hunting rifles, and they trust each other not to shoot them in the back. Lots of places where you could set up a blind at any turn in the road and wait for your enemy to drive by -- he wouldn't know what hit him unless you missed. But they trust each other, and there are very few murders unless some of the "hunting accidents" are murders. If people didn't trust each other they'd be trying to get rid of everybody else's rifles and shooting their enemies before their enemies shot them and getting public opinion settled on who couldn't be trusted with weapons and needed to be killed. But they do trust each other, they're neighbors.

I fondly look back to a time when being American meant something. Truth, justice, and the American Way were always more than trite slogans – it was a way of life. Kindness, decency, lending a helping hand, providing for the common good, a government that truly represented and pursued the ideals

They say 9/11 changed everything. Lots of people are nostalgic for the old days, but I don't think we can go back. What we might do, when enough people see we need it, is find a new way. A new Bill of Rights where we won't argue back and forth about subtle meanings because we wrote it and we know what it means.

Any suggestions what should go in it? The old America is dead or hibernating and buried so deep we probably can't dig it up. And the maggots are real active. But America isn't completely dead while there are citizens who stand up for american ideals.

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[penis enlargement]

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