The NRA versus the Rest of Us Posted by Lorelei Kelly

Another example of how well conservatives have staked out the terrain at the intersection of politics and ideas: This month's Foreign Policy magazine has a terrific article about the worldwide influence of America's highly influential gun lobby, the National Rifle Association.
Author David Morton, writing from South America, depicts how the NRA exploits the dark side of globalization--using shallow "feel good" messages about liberty and freedom to push its ideological agenda--one that allows no limits on individual ownership of guns.

The disappointing part of the NRA is not found in its basic premise, gun ownership, education and safety. The problem for society and, apparently, for the rest of the world is their "slippery slope" insistence that any regulation will lead to complete disarmament. When they decide to take their message international, therefore, the painstakingly constructed and maintained regime of international arms control is threatened. If gun control is bad in America, goes the NRA logic, then arms control must be bad for the world. The NRA and their flacks in other countries claim that gun control advocates want to leave citizens vulnerable to "criminals".  Well, in increasing circumstances those "criminals" just might be free-agent or organized jihadistas who want to get their hands on deadly devices to kill us.

But the NRA, though not explicitly, through its anti-gun control agenda--erodes away domestic will and support for government programs that help reduce that threat-- like compliance and inspection, like participation in international arms trafficking,  (or supporting the UN conventional arms registry) like discussing limits, period.

Both the military and the State Department have excellent arms control programs--and do mighty amounts of work for pennies (appx 3 million a year at state). They have received more attention lately because of real military threats, small arms and light weapons like shoulder launched missiles (MANPADS) and the dual-use nature of regular old munitions that create pernicious destruction (IEDs.) 

Last summer, I spoke with an American soldier who worked on an inspection team in West Africa--he said he had visited villages where they found huts that looked like "Wal Marts for Terrorists". 

It seems the NRA is willing to risk all of our safety--military and civilian alike--with its distorted version of individual rights and a worldview seemingly unchanged despite the threats that 9/11 brought home. The Bush administration has recognized that criminals and terrorists can be one in the same, nevertheless his supporters will not pass up a chance to drive a Mack truck through every gun control loophole that's presented itself, domestic and international. Maybe its because their political base includes those gun fanatics who shoot out the traffic cameras in Idaho intersections, but say nothing about his domestic spying agenda.  A convenient political tradeoff: their votes for our safety.  Thanks, NRA.

Comments

[bill]

Funny, a little paranoid are we...

[Guav]

As a gun-owning member of the NRA, and a left-wing liberal, I have to take exception to the title of this entry. Needless to say, I also don't see eye-to-eye with you on the content either.

Just wanted to let you know we exist :)

[James]

If the mongoloids of this world, in every country could exercise a little more self control and better judgement then un-restricted firearms ownership would not be an issue. But you want to punish everyone because some can not be responsible and act like violent children. Just because you can not understand that kind of personal responsibility does not mean that it is foreign or mysterious to the rest of us.

The NRA advocates personal freedom and responsibility. Something clearly alien to the author of this piece and the rag that would publish the inaccurate and lie ridden filth.

[Zedekiah]

Thanks goodness there are fewer and fewer "rest of us" every day. Join the NRA and support your constitutional rights.

[Lorelei Kelly]

Funny, none of the comments actually address anything that I wrote about, specifically about how the pro-gun fundamentalism of the NRA leadership zaps support for legitimate, life saving policies that protect all of us in an age of terror. Thank you for illustrating my point so expeditiously.

[Fagan Roberts]

Why would anyone, including this writer, really believe that we can control terrorists by forcing them to obey international gun owner control laws? Why would anyone, including this writer, place so much faith and stock in the integrity of criminals and terrorists to obey them? I would submit that most international terrorists favor gun controls on the civilian population because civilians are the primary target of terrorist operations. Criminals hate armed victims because it makes their job killing them so much harder. Disarming innocent potential victims in the face of men who will never obey gun control laws is a dangerous and highly suspect proposition.

[jc]

Interesting. I recall a couple of years ago the complaints of the "Gun Grabby Lobby". The complaints were essentially that the NRA was taking interest in other freedoms besides the Second Amendment and -GASP!- offering news and journalism services to the American Public. The NRA which works to protect gun rights, free speech, free press, privacy, etc, for ALL Americans is a BAD organization?

[Jay]

Lorelei writes:

"The problem for society and, apparently, for the rest of the world is their 'slippery slope' insistence that any regulation will lead to complete disarmament."

How silly of the NRA to think that! So what "arms control" has the NRA been opposing, in Brazil as quoted in the article from "foreign Policy" that Lorelei links to?

"Proponents of the gun ban proposed outlawing the commercial sale of arms and ammunition to civilians, capping a series of controls enacted in recent years. Unless you were a police officer, a soldier, or a private security guard, you wouldn’t be allowed to acquire a gun or the bullets to fire one."

Well, what do you know? It's the "complete disarmament" that Lorelei mocks the NRA for fearing.

[John]

Lorelei,
It is about rights. If you read the article you would remember that over 60% of Brazilians voted to keep their right to own firearms, eventhough only 2% of the Brazilian population are actual gun owners.

[Norm Cook]

Here's what you wrote:
"The NRA versus the Rest of Us"

So everyone not in the NRA is against them? Lovely title.

"Maybe its because their political base includes those gun fanatics who shoot out the traffic cameras in Idaho intersections..."

WOW you are really good at stereotyping!

"like compliance and inspection, like participation in international arms trafficking, (or supporting the UN conventional arms registry) like discussing limits, period."

I'm not even an NRA member, but I do own a few guns and I don't want anyone beside me knowing that I have them. Giving that to the UN seems like a terrific way of exposing yourself to not only your own country, but many others. In a time when, "the NRA is willing to risk all of our safety--military and civilian alike--with its distorted version of individual rights and a worldview seemingly unchanged despite the threats that 9/11 brought home." I'd like to keep my weapons to myself...and keep my weapons period.

[Richard]

The last time I looked, more unarmed civilians were klilled by their own governments in the 20th Century than by any band of criminals or terrorists combined. That was to the tune of over 4 Million in Nazi Germany alone. So disarming civilians is BAD? If that is the only way to keep a Khmer Rouge or a Pol Pot or a Stalin or a Hitler from killing their own people, I am all for arming everyone with fully automatic rifles. Let's start the training in elementary school.
To quote R.A. Heinlein "An armed society is a polite society".

[Lorelei Kelly]

Thanks for the comments, I remain unconvinced. I don't dispute that the NRA (and the membership) is a fine organization in several ways, what I do say is that there is a correlation between gun-rights fundamentalism and diminishing support for international regulatory regimes that protect all of us. The second amendment also says something about regulation, right? One more thing, I'd appreciate it if every one of the commentators made a statement about our president's domestic surveillance policies. I'm eager to hear how his self-designed eavesdropping relates to individual freedoms, and/or anything in our constitution, for that matter.

[Jay]

Lorelei is right about the "correlation between gun-rights fundamentalism and diminishing support for international regulatory regimes," but that is a response to governments and organizations that have not been satisfied with firearms regulation but continue to push for complete civilian disarmament (see my earlier post about Brazil -- that is NOT an anomaly).

It seems to me that our president's domestic surveillance policies may have gone too far, and that is also the position of some gun-rights fundamentalist groups such as GOA, which displays unusual consistency. Many groups and figures on the left who have criticized infringements on civil liberties in the fight against terrorism have nonetheless endorsed the concept of prohibiting gun purchases by US citizens if the US government places them on a secret list of "terror suspects," with no reason given for being included on such a list.

[Tim Butler]

" The problem for society and, apparently, for the rest of the world is their "slippery slope" insistence that any regulation will lead to complete disarmament."

Are there many places in the world where regulation is NOT leading to complete disarmament for everyone except the police and military? How many places in the world where regulation is currently in place are the common people now more easily able to acquire defensive arms than they were five, ten or twenty years ago?

When they decide to take their message international, therefore, the painstakingly constructed and maintained regime of international arms control is threatened..."

That would seem to be the entire point. That carefully crafted international regime seems to have as its goal the complete disarmament of the various communities it purportedly serves. Those communities, when the NRA's message causes them to examine the situation, seem to disagree with that goal. Furthermore, their reasons seem to have a lot to do with a healthy interest in their own continued survival.

The NRA and their flacks in other countries claim that gun control advocates want to leave citizens vulnerable to "criminals". Well, in increasing circumstances those "criminals" just might be free-agent or organized jihadistas who want to get their hands on deadly devices to kill us."

Please tell us where and in what way the criminals and/or jihadists have been more than momentarily inconvenienced in acquiring "deadly devices" by the machinations of the arms control regime. Seems to me that the NRA and their flacks have a more accurate view of just what "arms control" leads to when they look at Sudan, South Africa, Cambodia, Jamaica, Russia, Ukraine, England, Australia and now Canada.

"But the NRA, though not explicitly, through its anti-gun control agenda--erodes away domestic will and support for government programs that help reduce that threat-- like compliance and inspection, like participation in international arms trafficking, (or supporting the UN conventional arms registry) like discussing limits, period."

Which might be a good thing. As far as all these measures seem to be taken, they apply only to limitations on those who obey the law in the first place. You know, the people who aren't "part of the problem". The "bad guys" never seem to be even moderately affected. No wonder we wind up quickly fading in our support for such programs!

[Mark Harper]

"Maybe its because their political base includes those gun fanatics who shoot out the traffic cameras in Idaho intersections"

I think that answers your question about how we feel about "self-designed eavesdropping". You call them gun fanatics, I call them freedom fanatics.

[George Hatch]

Lorelei, regarding Bush's domestic surveillance policies, I'm not happy about it at all. It's a big step towards a Nazi-style "show me your papers" society, which is incompatible with the free society that our founding fathers envisioned. Bush could make himself more useful by closing up our borders instead of spying on our own people.

As for "international regulatory regimes that protect all of us", I think your faith is misplaced. Let's not forget that the UN consists of governments, including those of totalitarian states, whose only interest is maintaining power over their subjects. Their influence can't mean anything good for the safety of American citizens.

And by the way, "well-regulated" refers to a militia that is sufficiently equipped and proficient, it doesn't mean governments have authority to "regulate" by way of gun control. You are taking the Second Amendment completely out of context.

[Lorelei Kelly]

I'd like someone to tell me how not knowing exactly where the 500,000 man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS)out there in the world today are is improving my personal and our national security--not to mention the security of all aircraft and deployed American soldiers. I think the argument here is where you are willing to place the risk. I'm not convinced by any arguments thus far that the risk bias that presently exists (guns over all) is best for America.

[Isaac]

Lorelei, I appreciated your article and the responses- one thing to remember is- gun freaks are gun freaks. I grew up with guns, but wouldn't think of wasting my time or money with the NRA. If the 2cd amendment ever truly comes under threat- we'll have alot bigger things to worry about. The people that believe unrestricted ownership of 40 cal automatic weapons should be protected are zealots- they're the same people advocating closing down the federal governement. The NRA is like any other far right political machine- they drape themselves in the American flag, spout off the obligatory rhetoric and then go about their real business of helping the gun and ammo industry make more money. The NRA is just tapping new markets south of the border.

[Vincente]

Sigh,

If I still had my .30 carbine, I'd be popping off traffic cameras too. While riding around without a seatbelt... I kid.

I appreciate the intent of the article, LK, and I kind of understand what you're getting at. Kind of the MO for the Ethan Hawke character in "Lord of War," and his crusade against the proliferation of small arms... after all, nukes just sit in their silos.

But all those guns need fingers to pull them.

As I've aged and put more distance between my reactionary leftist youth and gained more of my libertarian skepticism, I've come to realize that the Left's tendency to pillory the Gun Lobby is not helpful, and does not advance civil libertarianism.

I take a cue from Paul Hackett when I say that I don't want government in my bedroom anymore than I want them in my gun cabinet. And yes, warrantless searches fall into this level of "don't tread on me" skepticism as well -- people deserve their constitutional freedoms, whether that be due process or the right to own a firearm for your own self defense against thuggery.

San Francisco just instituted a gun ban, which is being challenged right now. Washington has had one for over 25 years. As a resident, I remain duly unimpressed with its' results. But I digress. The State of New Hampshire has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the nation, yet is consistently rated a safe and affordable place to live.

I suppose this might make me a gun nut, so be it. Consistency is something to be striven for among those who espouse personal liberty, however, and I feel that piling on the 2nd Amendment diminishes credibility when attempting to defend the 1st.

I wouldn't knock Idaho either, y'all. For all his capital "R" ways, Sen. Larry Craig is one of the few people responsible for making sure the PATRIOT act is still an open book.

Live Free or Die,
MVS
(Granite State Native)

[Jay]

Lorelei, I have not seen where the NRA has advocated the unregulated private ownership and sale of man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS).

If they ever opposed an attempt to do so (and I don't know that they have), it was probably because the same attempt included rifles as well.

[Jason]

"It seems the NRA is willing to risk all of our safety--military and civilian alike--with its distorted version of individual rights and a worldview seemingly unchanged despite the threats that 9/11 brought home."

You don't get it. The laws imposed by *governments* risk our safety. How? By disarming decent, law-abiding people who simply want the means to protect themselves and their loved ones. Gun control laws are simply an inconvenience to most criminals. They'll get the guns one way or another. You could shut down every US gun factory right now and the flow of guns would come from somewhere else such as overseas or from underground (manufacturing crude guns is not difficult). It's Microeconomics 101. If there's demand, there will be supply.

The NRA fights for average citizens who simply want to be left alone but understand that in the real world, a gun is about the only thing that guarantees their freedom and a chance to defend themselves from tyranny, criminals, and whoever threatens the lives of them and their children.

If anyone puts forth a "distorted version of individual rights", it's you. You have no concept of rights.

I recommend you step out of your ivory tower of moral righteousness and elitism and step down into the pits of reality that most Americans (and people of the world) live in.

It's not the "NRA vs. The Rest of Us".

It's "NRA and Us vs. You."

[John Thayer]

"Mayor Bloomberg yesterday boosted his anti-gun rhetoric, insisting that the only reason to carry a gun in New York City is to "killsomebody"." http://www.nysun.com/article/25477 In keeping with the
mayor's pronouncement, he announced that he was giving up his armed bodyguards, who, until now, have protected his person and family 24/7. "I know it will seem foolhardy to many," replied the mayor, "but most ordinary New Yorkers cannot get a permit to keep a gun in their homes, let alone to carry one with them when they venture outside. Why is my life, and that of my family, more precious than that of a regular person?" said the mayor. "As of tomorrow, my security team will only use methods approved for ordinary citizens to defend me and my loved ones" insisted Mayor Bloomberg. "That means no Glocks or pepper spray or electronic stun guns or Tasers" the mayor said. "We'll rely soley on un-armed self defense techniques" he insisted. Sarah
Brady of Handgun Control hailed the mayor's move as "Breathtaking", she called it a "heroic and principled stand." Wayne LaPierre of the N.R.A. was quoted as saying, "Well, it's his safety at stake, he can do as he pleases." It is too soon to tell if other high flying celebrities in music, show business, motion pictures and the entertainment industry, who often tout gun control while being protected by armed bodyguards will follow mayor Bloomberg's lead.

Cobber

[rdf]

Gun death statistics:

"In a cross-border comparison for the year 2000, Statistics Canada says the risk of firearms death was more than three times as great for American males as for Canadian males and seven times as great for American females as for Canadian females.

Because more of the U.S. deaths were homicides (as opposed to suicides or accidental deaths), the U.S. rate of gun homicide was nearly eight times Canada's, the agency says. Homicides accounted for 38 per cent of deaths involving guns in the United States and 18 per cent in Canada."

Here is the full article:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/28/gun-deaths050628.html

To those who support the current gun policies in the US, I would just like to ask the question, how do you propose to lower the death (and injury) rate?

Standard answers like "better enforcement of existing laws" don't work. After all they have been tried for decades with minor effect.

[Jay]

rdf posted:

"In a cross-border comparison for the year 2000, Statistics Canada says the risk of firearms death was more than three times as great for American males as for Canadian males and seven times as great for American females as for Canadian females."

If Canadian gun laws work so well, why has the current administration in Canada proposed a sweeping gun ban
and confiscation?

Maybe those of us "who support the current gun policies in the US" would be more amenable to changing those gun policies if gun control advocates did not so frequently demonstrate that they will NOT stop with increased gun regulation but will push on towards gun bans and confiscations as seen in Canada, Britain, Brazil, etc..

[Jay]

rdf asked:

"To those who support the current gun policies in the US, I would just like to ask the question, how do you propose to lower the death (and injury) rate?"

If I have no proposal to "lower the death (and injury) rate," does rdf have evidence of a country that changed their gun policies and subsequently saw a lower death (and injury) rate as a result of those changes?

[glenn Anderson]

Darlin' even the title "THE NRA VERSUS THE REST OF US" is as uniformed as it is misguided.

The NRA only consists of approximately 4.2 million people - the REST OF US is composed of a list of level headed right thinking organizations longer than your petticoat. We could start with about 80 million firearms owners that are not members of the NRA, and work our way through just about every other organization you can think of except the Brady Bunch and the Violence Policy Center.

You see... there is a tremendous "trickle down effect" involved, beginning with the Second Amendment itself. Let's set aside arguements about firearms ownership being the "liberty teeth" in the Bill of Rights that enables the law abiding citizen to protect the remainder of their civil rights from thugs, tyrants and terrorists. Its
been argued to death and though very true, isn't perhaps as as much immediate concern to the reader as the following is.

If the NRA, and all firearms suddenly disapperared, you would be in one big fat financial crisis virtually over night. Not just because guns would no longer be manufactured or sold, but because the affect the economy and our daily lives in so many differnt ways.

Lets start with the Bambites and the Bunny Huggers. Hey, sportsmen have been known to hug a bunny themselves. They love our wildlife. Not just fried, or barbqued, but literally. The tax revenue from the sales of firearms and ammuniton provides thousands of dollars every year, thru a piece of legislation called the "Pittman-Robertson" act, for the preservation of wild life and its habitat.
So, how are they doin? Just fine. Earlier "meat hunters" of the frontier days left a bad reputation to be over come ... but today, we have more species of some animals under our care and protection than when the Mayflower landed.

Organizations such as Ducks Unlimited have reclaimed acre upon acre of marshlands in Canada, the US and Mexico to provide nesting and feeding grounds for ducks and geese that were being deprived of this critical land due to encroachment of acriculture.

Now in the interest of brevity, this is just one example of those hunters that have an active interest in preserving just one species.

My question here is .... if we hang up our guns ... from where will all that money come from to do the job of protecting our wild life and its habitat ? Brady Campaign? PETA? ELF? ALF? Honey, The Brady Campaign, is an organizaton dedicated to the overthrow of the Second Amendment of the Constitution, and every dime it makes goes straight into the politcal pot of the democratic party and its anti-gun politicans. They have never shown the slightest intrest in doing anything constructive concerning the acutal welfare of animals. Check with the FBI and you will find one of these illustrious organizations is listed as a domestic terrorist organizartion. Don't think much money is going to come from any of those directions.

And not all hunters are "trophy hunters" those that are out looking to hang a head on the fireplace for bragging rights. Most of us plain old "hunters" sort of look down on that type, if we get a good rack while out meat hunting, fine, but we are hunters in the sense that we are looking for venison to put in our freezers. We use what we take and we take steps to insure we replace what is harvested and that none of it goes to waste ... speaking of which...

Ever heard of an organization called "Hunters for the Hungry?" I thought not. But it feeds the poor and needy millions of meals every year ... you can find them on the web ... look them up, it will do your heart good to know that somebody cares.

Next question. If the gun grabbers have their way, will they take over this task of feeding those millions of meals to the poor and needy ... or are they more likely to be found with Mike Wallace, over at the French Embassy (where else pray tell) in DC ... at a Brady fund raising bash. Black tie ... nice dinner ... and not even the scraps go to the misfortunate gun asleep n the alley.

Do your enjoy the out of doors, though you might only do so thru a pair of binoculars or the lens of a 35mm camera? Good - just don't forget where the money comes from for the upkeep of the scenery, the flora and the fauna. Most of us like to trout fish and bass fish also and you can find our names on the membership list of Trout Unlimted and other organizations without which our rivers would be barren save for the accumulation of silt covering the rock.
Oh, would you mind picking up your Fuji film box and that Coke can you just tossed in the creek ... it would be appreciate.

Moving on, the tricke down effect moves into our nations industries... how many pickup truck and RVs do you think Ford, Chevy and Chrysler would come up shy of selling next year if the hunters no longer had a reason to load up and go afield?

How about the local hotels and motels and hunting and fishing camps that make their bulk of their entire living catering to their visitors during the peak of hunting season ... or that Mom and Pop country store that keeps stocked with a few items for the locals ... and a HO-HO or two along with a few gallons of Dr Pepper for the hunters that come and go in and out of adjacent hunting areas.

Would you like to talk about the garment industy? Not all of us wear those cheap looking $50 blue jeans that used to cost us $2.95 before the hip generation made a mockery out of the clothing that used to clothe all of poor ole country boys ... but we do support a large range of garment manufacturers, not only during hunting or fishing season, but because their products match our personalities ... and we buy their wares to the tune of millions of dollars worth of that clothing each year -from hats to waterproof hunting boots that I dont think even your hip little fiends could afford.

Like camping ... welcome to the club ... but most of us are not just day hikers with a little day pack on our backs. Many of us, from our Boy Scouting Days forward have been lugging around 60 or better pound of some of the most expensive camping gear you have ever laid your pretty little eyes on ... come on over and I'll show you some technical gizmos that I carry around for my personal safety while afield that will make your eyes pop and your wallet plead for mercy ... I know you probably talk iPod honey, question is, what do you know about satellite reception?

Do yourself a favor, send off for a Cabeles catalog and take a gander thru it... better still get a Gander Mtn catalog and do your gandering there ... it will give you a pretty good idea of what kind of an economic influence the shooting, hunting, camping, fishing, hiking and other outdoor types have on the economy of this country.

To give you a rough idea ... collectively they employ more people than WalMart who is the nations largest employer ... in fact, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Agencies (Southwick Associates), The National Shooting Sports Foundation and others indicate that the hunting and shooting sports market generates in excess of $30.9 BILLION of economic activity annually. This activity supports more than 986,000 jobs.

Do you honestly believe that our government wants to have to come up with the money and the jobs to replace what the gun control freaks want to ruin for them.
Do you as a tax payer want that job? How about we get Sarah Brady to kick in say, 10% of the total needed ... VPC another 10%... PETA 10%... get Disney to kick in 10% of the gross from all proceeds ever gained for Bambi... and the folks out in Follywood to kick in another 10% from out there in we Left Coast. Rosie O'Donnel ... put her down for he whole donut budget ... and even with that boost I doubt if the could cover the cost - even if they wanted to.

How about a litte money for wild life research ... I sure would like to find a cure for whirling desease among the trout ... deer are having a similar struggle ... Maybe we could get ELF or ALF to donate an amout equivalent to what they have spent on flammible materials in the past ... that would help a lot.

Kiddo, I could go on for hours, but I'm old and subject to carpel tunnel syndrome and hemmorhoids ... so I'll just leave you with these few words.

Its "THE NRA... AND THE REST OF US (BY THE MILLIONS) ... versus a few no-nothing, do-less, bone headed liberal idealist, that number approximately 250,000 by the best estimate ... headed up by a bitter, vindictive old woman that wants to take YOUR civil rights away from you.

She has already cost you $200,000,000 million dollars in wasted tax money for bright ideas that don't work ... and has caused a major shift in the politcal climate of our government over a single issue - YOUR right to keep and bear arms. It would have been nice to have voted for some people I didn't vote for on other issues other than that of protecting your right and mine ... but until people get the idea that all they will ever get from the anti gun lobby is the shaft, while their presidents and chair make six digit salaries for doing absolutely nothing, I suppose that's the way it will have to be.

Now I don't ecxpect you to run out and buy a gun, or go hunting or anything like that ... all I expect you and the rest of your ilk to do is be resectful of a generation that spent their lifetimes keeping this country free so you can have the opportunity to voice unfounded and unsubstanciated opinions ... in return, I only ask that you under stand one thing.

The Bill of Rights and the Constitution only ENUMERATE what our forfathers set down as the inalienable right of all people ... with the caveat that these things were not to be screwed around with (I'm sorry ... not to be "infringed") by anyone ... that includes you, Sara Brady, Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Hillary Clinton, and the He cow of the gun control herd ... Chuckie Schumer.

Understand this ... i respect your right to or not to exercise all, none or any part of those civil rights as outlined in our Constitution ... all I really ask is that you also recognize that I have those same rights.

Thats what makes this country what it is ... what I personally fought for for thirty years as a "lifer" that spent the better part of his younger days scanning the horizon, ready to protect it from "all enemies foreign and domestic" ... while the liberal left wing radicals did every thing they could think of behind my back to burn the flag and destroy the constitution from within ...

Last question ... did you ever see a gun controller politician whose first step upon taking office was to violate the oath he had just taken by suggesting that we destroy a part of that which he or she had just taken an sacred oath to preserve and protect "so help me God?"

Gettin so a politicians word ain't worth spit around Washington DC ... whut's this here world comin to anyhow ?

[glenn Anderson]

OK Lori darlin'

Here's the comment that you are looking for concerning our President and his domestic survelliance policies.

President Bush didn't come up with any new policy regarding such survelliance.
If you do your homwork, you will quickly discover that he has the right to order some surveliance without obtaining a court order to do so.

I'm going to make this real simple for you honey. This countrty has a vast network of listening capabilities that would make your iPod sizzle from overload ... all tuned in on everything they can tune in on ... satellite transmissions being chief among them now days what with the advent of things like that nifty Motorola cellphone that came with your Verizon contract.

Now I will make it even easier ... you have expressed an honest interest in the safety of the people of this nation. Osama Bin Lauden has declaired a Jihad against us ... that means the killing of all Americans, down to the last man, woman and new born baby. What would you give to know where he placed his last phone call from to one of his henchmen>

It is just that sort of thing that has already brought down several of his top aides and detected terrorist cells at work right here in the USA.... and thanks to old "Mr. Big Ears" over there at the White House, you can pull the covers up under your chin, hug your Teddy bear and sleep tight tonight.

Kiddo, all in life is not as it seems ... we have "college students" here in the USA that take "one way flight lessons" down in Florida in order to be able to commandeer and then guide commercial aircraft, laden with jet fuel into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon.

We have some "citizens" that we know are citizens in name only, we offer them the same protection under our Constitution as we do all other citizens ... but we keep an eye on them all the same. So when an incoming call indicates that its point of origin is likely to lead us to someone plotting the over throw of the government, or the death of this countries entire enhabitants, you can bet your sweet bippy
(does that date me) its going to get listend to ... legally ... whether the liberals over at the ACLU like that or not.

I'll quite being cute now and just say this ... when you take on the President, who is also our Commander in Chief, whether you like him or not, you can take it to the bank, that he has already consulted with all of his best advisors as to what the limits of his authority as either are.

In addition to which I can add with all confidence, having spent a part of my own military career at the Pentagon, that there are things going on in this country at this very moment that the average civilian doesn't have the foggiest idea about. If I thought that anyone who has voiced a complaint about this matter we are discussing had the slightest legal knowledge concerning such matters, or even a glimmer of an idea of what is going on behind the scenes, we could go behind closed doors, discuss the matter fully, and then I'd have to shoot you to ensure that full confidentiality was maintained.

Believe me, you don't want to go there and you don't want to do that. And I'm not being the least bit funny when I say that.

It is just that our government leaders have access to so much more than we do to make such decisons with, that unless we are as qualified as they are, we would be better off supporting them than criticizing them ...

The President himself really never gets involved in such debates ... with what he has at his disposal and what he knows that we do not, any "intellectual discussion" would be like dueling with an unarmed man.

Learn to trust your President honey ... true ... keep one eye on him and all the other politicans at all times ... but give them the benefit of the doubt unless you have done enough research and have come up with enough proof to have them dismissed from public office

Hell kid, your generation couldn't impeach Bill Clinton when you caught him with his fly open ...

But good luck all the same ...

[Geoff Parmer]

The left constantly warns the rest of 'idiot Amerikkka' that George Bush is on the verge of establishing an imperial dynasty that will trample all of our civil rights and enslave us in a fascist nation. In the next breath, the left argues that all of the citizens' guns should be confiscated, and only police and military should be allowed to have guns. Whose side are they really on? Or are they really that stupid.

[Kirk]

"It seems the NRA is willing to risk all of our safety"

Ok two questions for you about safety, before I answer your question...

1) Can you demonstrate just one time, one place, throughout all of human history, where restricting the access of handheld weapons to the average person made them safer? (google Joe Huffman for the origins of this question)

2) What are you going to do in the 10 ~ 15 minutes from the time that you call the police and their arrival? (I know what my answer is, and it certainly is not grovel and beg for mercy)

Your safety is in your own hands, the police are just there to fill out the appropriate paperwork upon arriving at the scene.

Now to address your request: "One more thing, I'd appreciate it if every one of the commentators made a statement about our president's domestic surveillance policies."

Our government has been tasked with the safety and security of our country. It will do things that we don't have any knowledge about. In fact the average citizen would probably be more afraid if she/he really knew just how many "bad" people intend us harm.

Domestic surveillance has always happened. It happened under Carter, Regan, Bush, Clinton, and now Bush again. I am also sure that it goes back a lot farther than current modern history. Nothing that the news media says or does will change that, It is a fact of life.

If you receive communications of a dubious nature, originating in a dubious part of the world you should expect that No Such Agency is reading your mail. It is after all the mission of No Such Agency to have "The ability to understand the secret communications of our foreign adversaries while protecting our own communications"

The president is doing his job as he sees it. He took an oath when he took the position of President that reads like this "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

If he is indeed violating that oath he will reap what he has sown.

It also seems that too many long term congress critters seem to have forgotten what they have sworn to do...

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

My thoughts on all of this are fairly cynical. I don't trust the government, so I will do my best to keep an eye on what it does. I will try to ensure that my rights (and by default YOURS) are not further eroded. You can bet that once the second amendment is gone, the first will not be far behind.

[Keith, Indy]

I can only surmise that there is some International Treaty on Non-Proliferation of Small Arms, that the NRA opposes, that might curb the proliferation of MANPADS, and the materials that are used to make IEDs.

That it might also led to the reduction of firearms by individuals interested in defending themselves isn't of any apparent concern to Ms. Kelly.

And of course, since in order to protect our rights, the NRA opposes most treaties and laws which would harm our rights, even with otherwise good proposals in them, the NRA is evil and must be eliminated. Or some such nonesense.

Don't modify the treaty so that it doesn't restrict an individuals right to defends themselves. That would likely be to hard for the autocratic states in the UN to swallow.

[Jonathan]

Our world has a serious gun problem. Not enough good people are getting guns for themselves.

[Christina]

What a bunch of arrogant, ignorant, infatuated, foolish, inbred hicks.

The stupid aren't integrally stupid until they achieve arrogance in their stupidity.

Gun owners live for the day they'll get the chance to blow someone clean away and get off Scott free only to brag to their NRA redneck buddies and cronies about that time they curtailed a life for the hell of it, that time they felt like God himself, for the rest of their sorry little existence.

You people are already so typical you're not even worth stereotyping. Do you think anyone actually gives enough of a fuck about your trifle little lives so as to put together a massive international conspiracy to the end of depriving you of your beloved steel and lead thereupon interning your sorry asses in extermination camps? You paranoid hillbillies highly exaggerate your trivial worth.

As long as you pay your taxes, and all you sorry fucks do with all of your wet dreaming about slaying ATF agents ("Give Caesar his due" ring any bells? oops, forgot none of you hypocrites ever even opened the Bible, let alone read any of it though that doesn't stop you from claiming to be God fearing people), nobody gives a rats ass about you idiotic megalomaniacs or your petty, insignificant little existence. Except when it's election year. A vote's a vote, no matter what bipedal animal it come from.

The 'light' armament and munitions industry of America makes good dough off of saps the likes of you.

Apart from regularly attending NRA meetings and filling the coffers of the death mongers you idolize none of you stupid fucks will ever amount to anything in this life or any, never achieve anything notable to posterity.

The second amendment is not about every single jerk in America being entitled to owning a gun, you NRA drones. Almost everyone knows that. The Founding
Fathers knew that, the Supreme Court knows that, the NRA knows that.

Only the lame fucks whose poor self esteem and paranoia the gun industry feeds and caters to don't want to acknowledge it but they do too. Well, the ones that aren't totally brain dead. Even the criminals and terrorists that get their claws on guns legally or easily because of the NRA's lobbying know it.

The NRA stands for nothing but upholding the right of the gun industry to maximize profits off of the stupid, ignorant, prejudiced, hateful idiots like you sorry lot regardless of the cost to decent, innocent, peace and fellow human loving people, irrespective of who the guns are sold to, of straw purchases, secondary markets or the blood of innocent people, children even.

The NRA first and foremost caters to the needs of the black market through its constant lobbying against decent, common sense gun control measures.

They want to make sure the gun industry has an open black market to keep looking forward at. That's what they strive for each and every single day of their evil existence.

Why stop selling legally or knowingly, carelessly and intentionally otherwise, if needs be - not really the case due to the successful lobby bullying the NRA endulge in through Congress - , to a perfectly good black market just because they might be murderers, rapists, drug or gun traffickers, insane, blind or underage?

Racist, prejudiced, cruel, illiterate narrow minded jerks, the lot of you. How can you even possibly fantasize about taking a life? Better than God, are you?

I really can't understand how the ground can stand you lot defiling it each time one of your stinking husks croaks in its own filth clutching those gun you hold dearer and cherish more than you ever possibly could another human being. Probably sleep with one under the pillow.

Why do I bother? Stupid ignorant idiots will believe whatever the NRA sells them about their beloved guns no matter how stupidly fallacious it is, no matter how hard you try to pry them out into the light from their heathen caves dim with ignorance and prejudice.

It's because of you stupidly paranoid lot that fine, decent, innocent children and people must live with and die from the specter of gun violence and the scourge of the ludicrous gun culture of America.

No matter. God sees all righteousness and evil and will reward each in kind.

[John]

Wow Christina you sure are an angry person. Mabye you are projecting your own lack of self-control and rage on to everyone else. Mabye you assume everyone is as angry as you are and that we are gonna need gun-control to keep all the anrgy people from killing each other.

[I'm a gun beleaver and N.r.a.supporter]

I, a member of the N.R.A. won't put up with the slammin of it or the people who own guns.I a hunter on the season,and a person that lives in the worst section of my city,been shot at once by a high power pellit rifle by a punk, hit my butt where the wallet was and still left a bruse. I answered it with my rifle,(outside)Kicked out a shell and asked the 20 year old punk if he wanted to play. A neighbor told them to turn around ,go back into the house and let it go. YES, if he pointed it at me, I would have shot him, just like the police would have. Another time a couple of punks in Dec. threw snowballs at the house, I yelled at them, one came back with a 9Mil., I ans. with my rifle, told him to take his shot when he pointed it at me, but said that if I was able to get a shot off,he won't see Christmas (2da. before)He lowered it and ran. Thank God for the N.R.A. and the defence of the second amendment.

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