Did I Go to Sleep and Wake Up in 1973? Posted by Heather Hurlburt

According to Newsweek's account, Karl Rove had a "double super secret background" conversation with Matt Cooper to tell him:

... Rove offered him a 'big warning' not to 'get too far out on Wilson.'  Rove told Cooper that Wilson's trip had not been authorized by "DCIA" -- CIA Director George Tenet -- or Vice President Dick Cheney.  Rather, 'it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip.' 

In all of the commentariat's heavy breathing about whether Rove gets indicted or not, I would hate for it to get lost that, whether or not it turns out to be illegal, it is now clear that Rove and others as yet unnamed were taking up a lot of time (paid for by taxpayers) to smear and embarrass two public servants, one of whom spoke in public certain uncomfortable truths which we now know to be, well, true.  I'm hoping to see this smear operation laid out in some detail somewhere soon (mass circulation, please?) so that more people have a chance to understand what kind of White House this is, indictments or no.

My better half sticks his head in and wonders, if Nixon was tragedy and Iran-Contra was farce, what is this?

Comments

[rosswords]

Deja vu all over again?

[Eric A Hopp]

I was thinking we woke up in George Orwell's 1984.

[rosignol]

My better half sticks his head in and wonders, if Nixon was tragedy and Iran-Contra was farce, what is this?

"Instead, a lot of Democrats seem to have opened up the vietnam-era playbook and seem to be trying for a repeat, spending most of their time thinking at the tactical 'Democrats vs. Bush' level and praying for another Woodward and Bernstein to come along."

[doc]

"...what is this?"

simply the hallmark of bush and co, overweening hubris: we can but hope that their comeuppance is as exagerated.

[Mikey]

How is it a "smear" for Karl Rove to tell the truth about how Wilson got his assignment and to *discourage* a reporter from taking the story further than it deserves? I'm a Democrat but I really think we Dems have this Rove/Wilson thing backwards. Wilson is the one who smeared the White House by telling only half of the truth about his mission to Niger. Contrary to Wilson's bold claims, he never debunked the famous "16 words" which asserted that associates of Saddam were *seeking* uranium in Africa. And Wilson conveniently omitted the fact that this claim was supported by none other than the Prime Minister of Niger. If the White House had it in for Wilson, they would have simply repeated this inconvenient fact 24/7.

[Porco Rosso]

Mikey, Do you recall the 16 words that Bush used in his 2003 State of The Union address?

“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

I guess it all depends on what your meaning of recently is. Joe Wilson learned that an Iraqi delegation visited Niger in 1999 and the Nigerians didn't want to talk Yellowcake with the Mesopotamians. Well raise my threat level to Orange. If that isn't reason to go to war, I don't know what is.

[Mikey]

Porco,
First of all, they're Nigerien, not Nigerian, as we're talking about Niger, not Nigeria. Second, the 16 words, as you've helpfully quoted (and as I said in my post), do not claim that the Iraqis acquired the uranium but that they sought it in Africa. So, no, the issue doesn't pivot on your defintion of "recently", but on your definition of "sought". The question in 2003 was whether or not Saddam had given up his nuclear ambitions. The fact that his representatives are said to have *sought* uranium in Africa was evidence that Saddam still had nuclear ambitions.

[Mikey]

I'd also like to add that the truth or falsehood of the "16 words" is not synonymous with the question of whether or not the Iraq War was justified. We Dems do ourselves no favors by conflating the two questions. It is perfectly reasonable to believe the war was unjustified while still admitting that the "16 words" were not "a lie". Unfortunately, I think opponents of the war continue to seize upon the "16 words" as though they will somehow invalidate the war (or the administration itself) in people's minds. It's not going to happen because there is no "there" there. Time to move on, in my opinion.

[melior]

"...what is this?"

karma.

Inside, Rove was talking to an aide about some political stratagem in some state that had gone awry and a political operative who had displeased him.... "We will f-ck him. Do you hear me? We will f-ck him. We will ruin him. Like no one has ever f-cked him!"

[sleepy]

Mikey,

I'm glad your a Dem. If you didn't say so right up front and repeatedly I'd think you were just parroting some talking points from the RNC or, well, from Rove.

The first President Bush said "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors."

So he at least seemed to think this sort of thing was fairly serious.

The FBI and the CIA seemed to think that a crime was comitted. That's why they referred it to DOJ. And DOJ seems to think its could be serious. They've jailed one reporter for not cooperating with their investigation. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they wouldn't have done that if they didn't think they had something.

When Novak outed Plame he also outed Brewster-Jennings. I don't know how many other operatives may have been exposed by that little tidbit, or how many outside people who'd worked with her may have been exposed. Wikipedia tells me that "The group (Brewster-Jennings) was intended to infiltrate ties between groups involved in smuggling nuclear weapons and the material to create them, to countries such as Israel and Pakistan."

And Rove blew that to knock down Joe Wilson's Op-ed piece? And you don't have a problem with that? And you're a Democrat?

That'd be unacceptable even if Plame had been the one to nominate Wilson for his pro bono trip (that's wrong because?), and even if Wilson said the things you attribute to him (he didn't).

But could catch on that Nigerien/Nigerian thing. That sort of sloppy thinking really makes me nuts…

[David S.]

What did we already know about Rove's role? Maybe someone can help with my memory, but my recollection was that Rove was known to pump and spin the story hard on the heals of Plame's unmasking.

[Mikey]

Hi Sleepy:

Your question "And Rove blew that to knock down Joe Wilson's Op-ed piece?" is assuming a bit much, don't you think? IOW, you're assuming Rove said far more than anyone I've read has actually claimed. Please provide the links substantiating that Rove outed any covert operatives by name. If he outed anyone by name who was actually working undercover, I agree that he should be prosecuted. And good riddance. Luckily, there's an investigation organized to determine who was responsible and if a crime was committed.

As for Plame herself, it was not a well-kept secret in Washington that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. Ask Andrea Mitchell. If information like that is floating in Washington circles and someone (like Rove or anyone else) repeated it without knowing that Plame was officially covert, that's not a crime. To qualify as a crime, Rove would have had to learn this information from classified documents, not just from a cocktail party where the information was common knowledge.

So far, the reporting suggests that Rove referred to Wilson's wife in order to explain to an inquiring reporter (notice the claim is not that Rove planted the story, as a smear campaign would imply, but that he responded to a reporter's question) how Wilson was picked for the mission to Niger. Rove responded that Wilson's wife recommended him. That's not a smear, it's the truth. A truth that Wilson, mysteriously, denied at first but which was later proven. The fact that Rove signed a waiver authorizing the release of Cooper's notes is a good indication that he's not the potentially criminal source that Miller is protecting. I'm just saying let's use our heads here and not make fools of ourselves with our allegations.

And, yes, I typically state (and re-state) that I'm a Dem (look I did it again!) when talking to other Dems or liberals in order to avoid the faulty assumptions that you refer to. The claim that Rove must be a criminal is not even remotely supported by the facts I've seen reported so far nor by any additional information providing in the comments of this post.

That's why I say there's no "there" there.

[sleepy]

Hi Mikey?

You wrote: How is it a "smear" for Karl Rove to tell the truth about how Wilson got his assignment and to *discourage* a reporter from taking the story further than it deserves?

Was I wrong to assume you thought Rove had told the truth or were you being strictly hypothetical? I don't think my question assumes very much more than yours.

I see you want to use that cute little "by name" parse, but as I'm sure you know by now, there's that Cooper email that says "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd" three days before Novak's column. I personally wouldn't want to walk into court waving that distinction. Her relation to Wilson wasn't a secret: her relationship to the agency was and Cooper's email has Rove putting that information out to the press before anyone had published it.

Now I personally don't know what sorts of circles Andrea Mitchell moves in and if she knew Joe and Valerie and the details of their careers prior to all this than color me impressed. Rove has said ""I didn't know her name" he couldn't have been all that familiar with her day job. Karl (and Andrea) move around some pretty high powered cocktail parties, so I think I'd be less surprised to learn that sensitive inormation is occasionally discussed than I would be to learn that they were all chatting it up about a retired mid-level diplomat and his business consultant wife. Her neighbors and her sister-in-law all claim to have been in the dark up until Novak's column.

I can't find the cite just at the moment but I thought I saw something saying that Cooper had called on a different story and that Rove had offered a sort of don't get to far out on this Wilson thing, it might not be all that. I'd love to see any cite where Cooper says he asked Rove about Wilson and how he was chosen for the Niger trip.

I know the Senate Intelligence report was inconclusive on that point (the trip) and that Wilson's version doesn't contradict anything in the Senate report, at least not that I've read. I've read that a "Senior Intelligence officer" at CIA told Newsday (7.22.03) "that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger. But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment". I'd like to see where it was proven otherwise.

But even if Plame did recommend him, so what? He was qualified, had worked in Niger, had worked in Africa, had worked in Iraq, knew the knew the field knew the players. His relationship to Plame discredits him how? He did it as a pro bono job and was reimbursed for expenses.

You wrote: Contrary to Wilson's bold claims, he never debunked the famous "16 words"

Wilson wrote (in a letter to the Senate): "I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have occurred and did not occur. "

You wrote: "Wilson conveniently omitted the fact that this claim was supported by none other than the Prime Minister of Niger."

David Corn reported (at his blog at the Nation (7/16/04): In his debriefing Wilson reported that former Nigerian Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki had told him that in 1999 he had been asked to meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. Mayaki said he assumed the delegation wanted to discuss uranium sales. But he said that although he had met with the delegation he had not been interested in pursuing any commercial dealings with Iraq."

It seems to me that you're very willing to give Rove every benefit of the doubt while being more than happy to whack away at Wilson.

My position on this has been very wait and see as far as the legalisms go. The lawyers will dance and the pundits will sing.

But this much seems very clear to me: "someone" in the White House outed an NOC CIA agent over an argument in the papers.

[ozoid]

The sequence is tragedy, followed by farce, and then very stupid slapstick. Except these stooges are playing with real weapons and the blows kill and maim.

As to why Wilson was sent to Niger, maybe Plame mentioned his name in the meeting. But remember -- and it drives me crazy that well-informed people seem to have forgotten this -- Wilson had been charge d'affaires in Baghdad and an ambassador in central Africa. And his security clearance file wasn't far out of date.

HE WENT TO NIGER BECAUSE HE WAS BLOODY WELL-QUALIFIED!

The CIA under George Tenet wouldn't have referred the case to DOJ if they didn't regard exposing Plame to be a serious security breach. Novak clearly identified his sources as SAOs. Tenet wasn't looking for more trouble with the WH.

[rosignol]

HE WENT TO NIGER BECAUSE HE WAS BLOODY WELL-QUALIFIED!

If Wilson was so well-qualified, why send a spook? That's what the fuss is about- the reason Wilson was sent was to provide cover for someone else who was (also?) being sent to check things out, and Novak let the cat out of the bag.

It's possible Wilson was sent to check one line of inquiry, while Plame was sent to check others, and it's quite possible that there were still others in the entourage who were similarly covered.

However, as with so many other issues in Washington these days, this isn't about Wilson.

[Mikey]

Sleepy:

You ask, "Was I wrong to assume you thought Rove had told the truth ...?" Are you referring to the truth that Wilson got his assignment upon the recommendation of his wife? I believe that was established a year ago by the Senate Intelligence Committee:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

In reference to recommendation you asked “So what?” and I say “So nothing!” I’m the one saying this wasn’t a smear, remember? It’s Wilson who denied it and later had to redefine the word “recommendation” to cover himself.

As for your question assuming too much, yes, it does. You stated that Novak mentioned Brewster-Jennings and then in the very next paragraph you asked, "And Rove blew that to knock down Joe Wilson's Op-ed piece?" From your question, I gather that you're assuming Rove outed Brewster-Jennings to Novak but I have not seen any evidence (nor claim) even suggesting that Rove outed Brewster-Jennings. Is there any evidence or claim (besides yours, I mean)? If not, then, yes, your question does assume too much. It assumes Rove outed Brewster-Jennings based only on the fact that Novak did.

I'm sorry if you find the "by name" phrase too cute (glad you think so!) but it's important. Here’s why: If Rove didn't say her name then we have at least some reason to believe that Rove (as he claimed) didn't know her name. And if he didn't know her name then there's no reason to believe he knew her classified status either. Both pieces of information would be on the classified document Rove would have had to have seen in order to be criminally culpable. Do you see now why the name is important? The information we know Rove talked about was (according to Cooper's notes) was in the context of explaining how Wilson (a non-CIA guy and not sent by the White House) got assigned to a CIA mission. I'm saying there's nothing (yet) to indicate Rove was doing this to out Plame but to explain (and truthfully) how Wilson got assigned.

I'm not going to debate Andrea Mitchell's social life with you. She says Plame's CIA employment was not a secret on the cocktail circuit. That means it didn't take a classified document to happen onto this info. For a crime to be shown, Rove (or someone else) has to have abused his/her access to classified documents. Simply hearing it informally and later repeating the fact that she worked for the CIA is not enough to get one prosecuted, as far as I can understand the situation and the law involved. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You take issue with my statement: “Wilson conveniently omitted the fact that this claim was supported by none other than the Prime Minister of Niger.” I should have been more clear. When I said “omitted” I meant “omitted from Wilson’s notorious NYT op-ed and all of his subsequent news appearances”. Wilson did omit the prime minister’s claim from his public story and it was only through the debriefing record and his later testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee that we learned about it at all. That’s precisely why I maintain that Wilson intentionally withheld from the public the prime minister’s claim that substantiated the infamous “16 words”.

You also quote Wilson stating that he never claimed to have debunked the uranium story. Wilson’s own opinion, a year later, of what he did or did not claim in the op-ed and on the TV show circuit isn’t relevant. He omitted information that supported the “16 words” and stated his conclusion that intelligence was twisted or ignored in order to justify the Iraq war. Call that what you want but I call it “debunking”. As a refresher, here’s the text of the op-ed. It goes a lot further than Wilson’s own characterization of it.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

And, finally, no, I’m not willing to give Rove “every benefit of the doubt”, only one: That he didn’t leak information from a classified document but only repeated something he’d heard informally. Upon further investigation, that doubt will, I hope, be resolved. But until there’s evidence indicating otherwise – which today there is not – of course I give him the benefit of that one doubt. I’m just going with the evidence as we know it so far and there’s a very plausible conclusion that fits those facts. I think that’s responsible.

I believe you, on the other hand, demonstrate a willingness to believe Rove is guilty of leaking information (like Brewster-Jennings) with no evidence at all to support your charge.

As for Wilson, no I don’t give him the benefit of the doubt on the issues that have been settled. Wilson said he didn’t get the rec from his wife but he did. He said documents had the wrong dates and names and he hadn’t even seen them. And he withheld from his very public account (and his biography, I believe) the fact that the prime minister of Niger supported the claim that Iraqi emissaries sought yellowcake in Niger. So what doubt, exactly, do you propose I give Wilson the benefit of?

Thanks for the discussion.

[Mikey]

One last note, since I think this discussion is about drained until more facts are reported. If Rove violated the law or was even engaged in any kind of smear campaign, then I'll be the first to call for his dismissal. And I'll owe Sleepy a coke : )

[doc]

Mikey -

just back, fresh off a week in the mountains: no commo at all. but, from my catching up on the news of late, it sure looks as though you owe Sleepy a coke...

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