The Vietnam Analogy Posted by Heather Hurlburt

I can't help it -- did anyone else have chills during the description of US advisers (sorry, I've forgotten the term Bush used, which wasn't advisers) living, working and fighting with Iraqi troops?

I yield to those who remember Vietnam...

Comments

[Eric A Hopp]

Heather: I didn't get the chance to see the president's speech, however what I gather from the Associated Press story, it seemed like the same ole...same ole. It was a Republican campaign rally, morphed into a major prime time address, with the president saying exactly the same thing he said for the past three years. Compare some of his re-election campaign rally speeches on Iraq with this address, and they're probably almost the same.

As with shades of Vietnam, I've been worried about this analogy ever since the insurgency started. I've read enough about the history of Vietnam, and watching the war unfold on the TV when I was a kid. The only way to stop the U.S. from getting bogged down into another Vietnam is to get the support of the country's population behind you. But it is a fleeting chance, and we blew that chance long ago. We didn't have enough troops to secure the country (Thus the Iraqi population went on a looting spree). We disbanded the army. We wer slow on the reconstruction--wanna win the people's support? Get the lights, water, sewers running. Get food into the cities. Get people working on rebuilding the country's infrastructure. Give the local governments real authority to run their cities. We blew it all. And now we are paying for it in blood and treasure.

[Greg Priddy]

I wasn't around during the Vietnam era, having been born in 1970, but it sure reminded me of quotes I've seen in books of LBJ talking glowingly about working hand in hand with the ARVN.

And just as then, the U.S. military can't trust the 'friendlies' because a substantial proportion of them are really working for the other side -- which, just like Vietnam, isn't surprising when the majority of the population wants U.S. forces to leave:

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/steinberg/20050223.htm

The other Vietnam reference I'm reminded of (fictional, of course) is the exchange between the Colonel and Private Joker in Full Metal Jacket:

Colonel: "We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out."

Substitute "raghead" or "hajji" for "gook," and you've got a rough approximation of the Bush administration's nonsense about the war in Iraq "transforming" the Middle East. The sooner we figure out that this isn't the case, the better off we're going to be.

[Cal]

Heather, if you get a chance I'd recommend a *1968* article by a former State Dep't East Asian specialist, called "How Could Vietnam Happen?". You've probably read it or heard about it, but please read it again. The parallels are striking. This paragraph in particular I thought prophetic:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/68apr/vietnam.htm
http://www.echeat.com/viewtopic.php?t=25543

---"There is a final result of Vietnam policy I would cite that holds potential danger for the future of American foreign policy: the rise of a new breed of American ideologues who see Vietnam as the ultimate test of their doctrine. I have in mind those men in Washington who have given a new life to the missionary impulse in American foreign relations: who believe that this nation, in this era, has received a threefold endowment that can transform the world. As they see it, that endowment is composed of, first, our unsurpassed military might; second, our clear technological supremacy; and third, our allegedly invincible benevolence (our "altruism," our affluence, our lack of territorial aspirations). Together, it is argued, this threefold endowment provides us with the opportunity and the obligation to ease the nations of the earth toward modernization and stability: toward a fullfledged Pax Americana Technocratica... In a sense, these men are our counterpart to the visionaries of Communism's radical left: they are technocracy's own Maoists. They do not govern Washington today. But their doctrine rides high.---

I would argue that some of the people (not you) posting on this blog suffer from the same illusion. But again, read the whole essay, which is only a page, and examines many of the same problems we're experiencing today.

[doc]

...the stench coming from this WH is of the same strain that was emitted by the nixon WH.

and that is where the vietnam analogy is most apt – there was the same paranoia and manipulation of the press that exists now, although even nixon never tried to ‘fix’ the news by creating ‘reports’: he and his stooges just intimidated the hell out of the media. and
the media, like today, stood there and took it; watergate was an anomaly.

still…

like then, both the military and the folks back home are questioning the war.

like then, we have walked into a conflict that we are ill prepared for because we were lied to about the entire enterprise, the WH both underestimated the forces needed and overestimated our reception by the country we were invading.

like then, the current WH is feeding both the public and itself pabulum in an effort to justify staying the course.

like then, social programs ( just babies and poor folks) are starting to suffer because our treasury is being depleted overseas.

like then, there is no thought given to the wasted lives (okay, maybe they’ll build a new memorial along the national mall).

and like then, there is no thought, much less a plan, on how to leave.

hmmmm...if the WH started going after reporters, there might be SOME similarity to vietnam, I guess…

[Stygius]

I got chills, but for a different reason. To me, the line was a sugarcoated way to say that the only way Iraq's military will function is if US officers and noncoms run. It's a tacit admission that the new Iraqi officer corps is utterly unreliable.

[Terrier]

Vietnamization and negotiation (notice the recent hints that we ARE negotiating with terrorists (and notice that Bush said nothing about it)) were the 'secret plan' that Nixon used to get elected (twice!) One of the lessons the young need to learn right now about Vietnam was that Nixon was elected because he promised to end the war. He was not puffing his chest up and talking about a generational commitment to freedom for Vietnam. That talk was what got the Democrats thrown from office.

[Sal M]

Umm, chills? That's been standard practice for Special Forces troops for a LONG time. It's part and parcel of training the local forces... in the non-military world it would be called Mentoring or Teaching By Example.

[Byronius]

I wouldn't want to extend the "Vietnamization / Iraqi" example too far but this illustrates some deficiencies that obviously CentCom has noted about Iraqi troop caliber. (1) Leadership- sounds like a 12 week course on battalion operations isnt producing the John Wayne spirit we like to think our military leadership inspires ( at least not in enough volume). (2)Mixed Tribal and Religious Loyalties - local loyalties and feelings are difficult to set aside if you really havent got a " national" identity and if you don't trust the guy on your flank or behind you - it makes your decision-making / initiative more restrictive. (3)Command & Control integration- in a fluid dynamic combat environment of today - by getting more " boots on the ground" ( Iraqi boots) offsets some of the pressure for increased US forces. You can improve your overall military capability ( in toto) in a larger quantitative sense by diffusing our more effective US military forces throughout the theatre of operations. There are some drawbacks to this but perhaps the risks have been considered acceptable??

[ltales]

Ah, I can see most of you are too young to have been in Vietnam...or understand it...too bad.

War is not a parlor game or entertainment for theorizing dilettantes or political stragety.

This is the second war on a lie...there won't be a third anywhere but right here.

You'll learn eventually...and it will probably cost your generation more than it cost mine.

[Lane Brody]

Vietnam and Iraq and apples and oranges. Vietnam was waged by the majority of the populance (North Vietnam and a significant percentage of those in the South) who for mostly nationalist reasons had been fighting for centuries. The insurgency in Iraq is being waged from a smal minority of the population base.

Vietnam was supported by the other Superpower, China, and others from various "safe" areas. There is no Ho Chi Minh trail in Iraq. South Vietnam was a corrupt regime vs Iraq being a new democracy forming in an extremely transparent manner with UN input.

Attaching advisors to foreign military units is a standard procedure. The US had advisors attached to all the major Afgan groups in Afganistan and to every Arab unit in the Gulf War (although the mission here was less advisory and more centered around communication for air and artillery support). If the term "advisor" has some Vietnam connotation it's only due to a level of ignorance regarding everyday military procedures.

The essential truth is that Vietnam and Iraq is a very poor analogy. The insurgency has no Ho Chi Minh ( popular nationalist leader) and is fighting to put back in power a small minority of the ruling population that is opposed by the vast majority of the population.

The US took over a decade to go from armed struggle (revolutionary war) to Constitution. Iraq is doing this much faster than we did. One might take a breath and grab a bit of historical perspective. They only the first election 6 months ago...

Lane Brody

[Julian Wycliffe]

Exact parallels to Vietnam are irrelevant, and unneeded. A Lebanon analogy will do just nicely. The Iraqi resistance has the support of at least 40% of the population, according to polling data cited by Juan Cole. The Chinese insurgency in Malaya had the support of less than 5% of the population, and it lasted ten violent years before finally being put down by the British. The counter-insurgency in Malaya is the only modern example of a First World army defeating a native insurrection. Resistance movements gain momentum, they get stronger, they don't suddenly collapse.

A few days ago an American helicopter was shot down in Iraq by rebels armed with an SA-16 missile, a more sophisticated Russian version of a Stinger. As the AP story mentioned, the introduction of such weapons into Iraq would mean a frightening escalation in the U.S. bodycount. Roadside bombs are becoming sufficiently complex to defeat American countermeasures. The insurgency may lack a central leader, but that only means the resistance will be harder to contain. The Iraqi resistance resembles the modern terror cell. If one group is neutralized, there is another. Killing bad actors, or capturing insurgents will do nothing to slow the activities of another group, because they act indepedently of one another. The lack of a Ho Chi Minh trail is the most irrelevant fact of all. There are enough weapons, and explosives in Iraq today to fight a high intensity guerilla war that lasts decades.

So Iraq is not Vietnam. It is still an unwinnable proposition.

[Gerard Cefalu]

hello

[Gerard Cefalu USAF Retired]

As a Vietnam vet who was in country,I am sad at the lose of history of the lessons learned from that war. Armchair war experts who never served a day of active duty much less in war have taken over this country and silenced the few of us left that remember from vietnam.Iraq is a result of lessons ignored by leaders who never served and do not know the true cost of a insurgent war or any war for that manner.Colin Powell tried to warn Bush as did Tommy Franks about not putting a half milloin troops to occupy on the ground.Americans do not like being lied to about the reasons of going to war in Iraq and there were no links to 9/11 and no wmd.Also there were no terrorist untill Bush created this situation that we have now in Iraq.Not only did Bush refuse to listen, but he removed the advisors who disagreed with his strategy.
Now we have a mess and it's worse than Vietnam because there is no draft!We are very quickly exhausting or active ,guard and reserve forces with constant deployments to the war zone that never has a end for our troops.Commander of Reserve and Guard forces has warned of major problems that have gone ignored.Without a draft we have no way of relieving or exhausted forces.The Guard and Reserve was never meant to be used as a long term permanent force,rather it was intendes as a temporary fill in force untill drafees were trained to get to the conflict.Never have we used Guard and Reserve in this manner ,even in the worst days of Vietnam.
Our military is being led by Rumsfeld who is experimenting with his theories of fighting wars witch could not be more dangerous..ie"war on the cheap".
Wars ar won by lines of supply and communication.In Vietnam we had enemy forces using Laos and Cambodia as supply and infiltration points with we could never permanently stop.Eventially they prevailled through resupply and insurgent tactics that we gave up ground constantly to the enemy.Gen Westmoreland said that we did not have enough troops to secure the borders and stop the flow of insurgents.The same is ocurring in Iraq with terrorists flowing over the borders of a land locked country.Instead of hitting El Quida n Afganistan with enough force we are bogged down in Iraq with forces needed other places.Clauswitz said that you never fight a insugent war with a large standing army.Rather you strike at the base camps and constanty hit them where ever they are!We can't do that because we do not have enogh forces and they are tied down in Iraq!This President has not been honest and taken the courage needed and called for a draft.It is not fair to fight a war with only the poor kids doing the dieing and suffering.Gen Westmoreland said after the Vietnam war that if the war is important enough to commit our military it is important enough to involve all Americans in a draft without deferments so all will share in the sacrifice.Is anyone listening??

[Byronius]

Gerard - in reply to your July 5 post
I think people are listening but they're don't like the answer(s) that you're pointing to. An administration ( of any Party) that re-activated the Draft would be committing political suicide. Realist ( neo-cons or otherwise) would prevent that from coming up on any political priority list. So - you use what " tricks" you can such as reservists, re-enlistment bonuses, private contractors, stop loss, etc to maintain an gradual declining operational mission effectiveness.
It really boils down to a timing and calculation risk = how much " damage" can the US combat force structure absorb before "organic" Iraqi troops are ready? and when will those organic Iraqi forces be ready or partially ready? I think any timeline longer than 18 months would be very detrimental to US Forces.

I don't see any relief from non-US sources ( except maybe from private contractors ) but that's another whole can of worms.... I would hope that DOD wouldn't consider " combat advisors" a support contractor task eligible for outsourcing. That would be total stupidity.....but then again this is the same DoD that believes in mini-nukes as a bunker buster in our campaign against the WMD "evil doers"

But back to Iraq and other past examples like Vietnam - there are some similiarities that we seem to be forgeting to keep in mind: (a) Hearts and Minds - as was so aptly termed during the Vietnam War- is still unresolved in Iraq. Yes - Voting in Iraq shows that there is a great " ambition" by Iraqis for a different reality but its doesn't reach the guts of committment. We haven't delivered on the promises to the people of Iraq about jobs (except being a security professional or guardsman),infrastructure or opportunity.
(b)Porous Borders - not just in terms of manpower but finances and influences (e.g. Iranian). Although Iraq has become the rallying point for jihadism - a large part of the insurgency is home-grown and swims in a relatively large ocean of " like-minded supporters and anti-Western / anti-American enclaves";
(c) Declining Base of US Domestic Support-regardless of how well-intentioned a President may be - if success isn't demonstrated to be on the very near horizon, he / she losses a general public consensus. We seemed to have reached that point where cracks in the facade are starting to appear. Hopefully however we won't go through the same kind internal strife we did in the late 60's and early 70's.

[a]

abc...

[Gerard Cefalu]

I was reading the morning paper and three items shouted out.The article,AP dated 8 Feb,2007,"Tension rises,Bagdad crackdown begins". The fact that we are starting to lose helicopters to ground fire should suprise no-one.One only needs to read the operation reports of Soviet forces in the former war in Afganistan to see that camel riding insurgents,who we supplied, were able to defeat Soviet aircraft with RPG and shoulder fired rockets.Of course this administration was so in a rush to invade Iraq that the "decider" did'nt read his pertinent history lesson. Oh by the way ,we learned the same lessons in Nam.
Two, the words of a Iraq Bagdad resident,"Nothing will work,it's too late", we should use to ask the very good question that is it really too late? I think so.
Three, the fact that we are putting our ground forces on suicide missions should be addressed by many questions to be asked, such as why we are forcing our soldiers out on patrols with Iraq Army units that we know have infiltrated by insurgents?Such a deadly situation one should ask if our senior officer and NCO's are issuing unlawful orders and endangering the men under there care to suicide missions from he chain of command to the President. The Uniform Code of Military Justice spells out these laws and are pertinent to officers to obey lawfull orders and not to obey unlawfull orders,and in my opinion,these are UNlawfull for the reasons given. Again one only needs to read about Vietnam to be informed.The Commander in Chief has an obligation to the men under his command and so down the chain of command. This command structure has been politically corrupted from the top as in Vietnam.
The Congress has a constitutional duty to stop this war,because the mission has changed and the President and VP have lied to Congress and the American public and misled us into this situation.This alone is grounds for impeachment,and,at least,to end this with the cutting of funds which the Congress has the task to stop. The founders intended the responsibility of war powers to be shared,and not the exclusive power of this President. Some one has to stop this abuse of our forces and this will be pro troops morethan anything.
If we have to vote out every politician to stop this war that is the course we must take.Be they democrat or republican they must be voted out if they support continued action to a unlawfull order!This nightmare must END!!
Gerard Cefalu
USAF RETIRED

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