Dispatch this Posted by Suzanne Nossel

Just a quick reply to Joseph Britt on Belgravia Dispatch.   Joseph points out that whereas some - Europeans for example -  around the world react to events like the abuses at Abu Ghraib thinking they are at odds with American ideals, others - e.g. in the Muslim world - see such actions as of a piece with our mores and culture.

I actually think both groups see such behavior as some of both.  Yes, its hypocritical in that we talk a good game about human rights, and yet show signs of being unwilling to confront abuses when they occur within our own ranks.  At the same time, they tie the deviance to what they both see (though in differing degrees) as negative features of our culture - boorishness, lack of respect for tradition, moral looseness, glorification of violence.   

These two reactions and the tension between them is itself linked to what they see as contradictions in our society and signs that - Abu Ghraib aside - we are not what we purport to be.  We will confront perceptions of our own hypocrisy and disingenuousness almost no matter what we do.  But events like Abu Ghraib and the latest Koran flushing at Guantanamo only feed into these and make life harder for those charged with getting U.S. policies implemented.

Comments

[rosignol]

Go to a bookstore. Find the most compact printing of the Koran in the place. Buy it, take it home, and try to flush it.

You can contemplate how skeptical one should be of anonymous reports while you wait for the plumber.

[The Indigent Blogger]

Unlike the Abu Ghraib reports which were substantiated by hard evidence produced in the military investigation, including photos and testimony, the toilet-flushing piece in Newsweek is confirmed only by "sources". In this case, "sources" could be limited to recently released detainees.

[manoppello]

"Go to a bookstore. Find the most compact printing of the Koran in the place. Buy it, take it home, and try to flush it."

I wouldn't suggest doing that if you have a septic tank... :))

Susanne,

I think it is worthwhile to point out that a lot of this is the fault of policy makers in both the state department and defense over many past administrations. They failed to take religion serioiusly as a strategic issue. In the case of the Middle East they really should have found a way by now to take religion out of the equation. That by and in itself would alleviate a great deal of the tension in the Middle East. Instead it has grown and become an invincible "gollum" that will not
go away.. on all sides of the conflict.

Take Jerusalem away from both sides, from all sides. Give it to the United Nations, make the city "religion neutral" and you will find that much of the tension that currently dominates the region would dissipate.

[Achillea]

manopello: In the case of the Middle East they really should have found a way by now to take religion out of the equation.

This, this is the 'reality-based' idea? 'Oh, just take religion out of the Middle East' (uttered with a blithe let-them-eat-cake handwave). Sure. I'll take care of it on my lunch hour tomorrow. Better yet, since you're so sure it can be done, you do it. I'll bring the popcorn.

Take Jerusalem away from both sides, from all sides.
Depopulate Jerusalem? Because that's what it would take.

Give it to the United Nations,
Hand it over to the most anti-Semitic organization since the Schutzstaffel?

make the city "religion neutral"
Raze the Temple Mount, the Wailing Wall, and all other historical-religious sites within the city limits, along with every single mosque, synagogue, and church. Brilliant. Don't know why nobody thought of this before.

and you will find that much of the tension that currently dominates the region would dissipate.
Well, sure it would, since there wouldn't be anybody there to be tense.

Seriously, while I agree that administrations on both sides of the aisle have underestimated the religion element, that's nowhere near the extent to which you underestimate that element's intransigence. An atom can be split with greater ease and assurance than a person from his religious beliefs, let alone millions of people from theirs.

[manoppello]

Achillea your interesting reaction appears to underscore, and perhaps even prove by example my claim about the effect religion has had on policy making, negotiations and deliberations in the Middle East.

"Give it to the United Nations,
Hand it over to the most anti-Semitic organization since the Schutzstaffel?"

You seem to infer that Jerusalem is a "European Jewish" city only. Yet if I am not mistaken there are quite a number of Christian Cathedrals there... not to mention the dome of the rock. Lets not forget about all of those Eastern Jewish sects that have been there since ancient times including the Samaritans. They are also often treated as second class citizens. Your line of thinking is enough to send every Arab scurrying for their AK-47. Again religion needs to be COMPLETELY REMOVED from the equation or the Golum and its quagmire that is the Middle East will never be exorcised.

How about the Dalai Lama? He needs a home. But then it wouldn't be religion neutral. Susanne and her husband have expended a great deal of energy trying to convince us of all the good things the UN has done and could do. Well here they could do a service that is desperately needed, by ensuring that Jerusalem is just a holy city and not THE holy city for any specific religion.

"Raze the Temple Mount, the Wailing Wall, and all other historical-religious sites within the city limits, along with every single mosque, synagogue, and church. Brilliant. Don't know why nobody thought of this before."

Your brain must be silly putty from watching too many Simpson's reruns. By religion neutral, I meant that it would not favor any religion yet it would be open to every pilgrim who sought the holy land. Besides, Jerusalem would not be
economically viable without the tourist dollar. Every monument and holy place would be carefully preserved for both religious and historic reasons. And the UN is very good at that.

"an be split with greater ease and assurance than a person from his religious beliefs, let alone millions of people from theirs."

No one is asking them too. Instead just to accept the fact that Jerusalem belongs to the world and not just to one particular orthodox Jewish sect. After all, in a sense, both Christianity and Islam are a form of orthodox Jewish sect as much as the Pharisses, the Seducees, the Eocenes, and Samaritans are orthodox Jewish sects. And this one city is the biggest bone of contention keeping all these silly sides from agreeing to a mutually beneficial treaty, while flaming the fuel that keeps violent extremist groups popular on BOTH SIDES.

ITS TIME TO TAKE AWAY THEIR TOY because they have been very, very bad.

[Yehudit]

"By religion neutral, I meant that it would not favor any religion yet it would be open to every pilgrim who sought the holy land. Besides, Jerusalem would not be
economically viable without the tourist dollar. Every monument and holy place would be carefully preserved for both religious and historic reasons. And the UN is very good at that."

I don't know what planet you live on, but on this one the Israeli government is very good at that. Every religion with a stake in Jerusalem already worships freely and their holy sites are protected. If you can show otherwise please do, otherwise stop setting up straw men about issues you know nothing about.

In fact, the only people who don't have such protection are the Jews. Our holiest spot actually belongs to the Muslim WAQF, which is busy destroying priceless 1st and 2nd Temple archeology to build parking lots for their mosque. The entire world condemned the destruction of the huge Buddha statues in Afganistan, but Muslims raze Jewish history and no one at the UN, the EU or anywhere outside of Biblical archeologists bats an eyelash.

(And I don't recall the UN as being particularly good at protecting those statues. The UN also didn't protect the Baghdad museum from looting, and looks the other way as the WAKF destroys the Temple artifacts. In fact, do you have any examples of the UN successfully protecting anything?)

[Yehudit]

"both Christianity and Islam are a form of orthodox Jewish sect as much as the Pharisses, the Seducees, the Eocenes, and Samaritans are orthodox Jewish sects."

This is a boneheadedly ignorant statement of truly amazing magnitude. Go tell some Muslims and Russian Orthodox they are part of an Orthodox Jewish sect. Go ahead, I dare you. I'll be over here ready to duck under the table when the shit starts flying.

It takes a lot to get me to call someone names on a blog - I prefer to make arguments instead - but you're just a ninny.

[manoppello]

"I don't know what planet you live on, but on this one the Israeli government is very good at that. Every religion with a stake in Jerusalem already worships freely and their holy sites are protected. If you can show otherwise please do, otherwise stop setting up straw men about issues you know nothing about."

Yehudit of the two of use I think you are the more ignorant by comparison. First, who founded Christianity? An orthodox Jew named Jesus Christ. Who evanglized it to the world? An orthodox Jew named Saul Paulus. As for Islam, I am certain that you must be aware of the many similarities between orthodox Islam and Judiasm? Their attitude toward women particularly in the secular sense is almost identical.

As far as Israel's "even handed" treatment of everyone here is a quote I posted on a different blog for you to ponder:

Reflections By An
ARAB JEW
by Ella Habiba Shohat

Irvi Nasawi: Sephardic & Middle Eastern Cultures

"The same process also affected our uprootedness or ambiguous positioning within Israel itself, where we have been systematically discriminated against by institutions that deployed their energies and material to the consistent advantage of European Jews and to the consistent disadvantage of Oriental Jews. Even our physiognomies betray us, leading to internalized colonialism or physical misperception. Sephardic Oriental women often dye their dark hair blond, while the men have more than once been arrested or beaten when mistaken for Palestinians. What for Ashkenazi immigrants from Russian and Poland was a social aliya (literally "ascent") was for Oriental Sephardic Jews a yerida ("descent"). "

Israel cannot even manage to treat other non-European Jews even-handedly!!! How can we ever expect her to make a lasting peace in the Middle East? If Israel really were interested in managing Jerusalem in an appropriate way, respectful to all religions, she would not have made her the capital of Israel. Note well that the US even under the current administration has yet to recognize Jerusalem as the capital.

So, your arguments are those of an silly idealogue and a religious fanatic, possibly and extremist. And your name calling dismissed as typically puerile coming from someone of that ilk.

[Tommy G]

..."and yet show signs of being unwilling to confront abuses when they occur within our own ranks."???

Whaaaaa?

OK, seriously - How in God's name does Britt give you Props for this? Leaving aside my people (DOD) without which you'd have had no one coming forward, nor immediate action, nor prosecution, you seem to miss the elephant in the room (or perhaps you haven't a mirror?) - namely:

"Yes, its hypocritical in that we talk a good game about human rights,"

Who in the hell is we, Nossel? Isn't it all of us? Aren't you a citizen of this democracy? Or is this just a clever device for your web log? Weren't the leftist that we watched fill the streets, protesting for peace, "We"? Weren't they, and you, and the rest of your Democrat friends that were all over this story, demanding answers (and rightly so), "We"?

Or were the Republicans right about you guys all along? How is what "we"'ve been doing, for over a year now, "unwilling"?

You know what? Nevermind. Keep on posting - "We"'ve got another elction coming up.

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